Thomas descibed his rig to indicate that it was a pretty well thought out sidecar specific outfit and mentioned flying the chair as something that he is familar with...these things were not the main point however.The main point of Thomas' post was that even with experience and a well built rig a left turn can bite.
Experience will also tell us not to exceed a proper speed in corners. I don't know about the lighter sidecars but if you roll something like a Harley or a Goldwing with a large sidecar, you are probably going to have a fatality.
Point well taken. Somebody mentioned that you learn about physics the easy way on righties, you learn about physics the hard way on lefties.
Sums it up for me.
Needless to say, I would not want my 800 pound Valkyrie landing on me.
While lefties can be a real problem, panic correction lands you on the shoulder if you don't pitchpole.The same panic correction on a right turn lands you in head-on traffic - much worse to my way of thinking.
Originally written by Rotten Ralph on 6/8/2007 11:50 AM
While lefties can be a real problem, panic correction lands you on the shoulder if you don't pitchpole.The same panic correction on a right turn lands you in head-on traffic - much worse to my way of thinking.
not if your making a left in the left lane and turning with cars or trucks on your right[double lane turn]..instant disaster. slow down!!!
Originally written by Rotten Ralph on 6/8/2007 11:50 AM
While lefties can be a real problem, panic correction lands you on the shoulder if you don't pitchpole.The same panic correction on a right turn lands you in head-on traffic - much worse to my way of thinking.
.......................................................................
Ralph and all,
In the real world there is little to no 'panic correction' once the rear wheel of the bike comes off the ground in a left hand turn. I want to make that clear as you and others reading this are probably fairly new to sidecars. In practice a rear wheel pickup happens so fast that the driver will usually be pitched forward and to the right and can actually come off the seat. The rig is at the mercy of the forces that caused this all to happen to begin with. Typically a scare is the result of this ...stage two is th enose of the sidecar touching down and phyase three is bike going over sidecar. Most times stage one or two are reached but stage three is a posibility.
Now let it be said taht a sidecar rig is really quite stable in left hand turns. What is being spoke of here is no everyday occurance at all. It can however happen and new sidecar jockeys should be aware of it.
Here is a portion of my response to Thomas' post at SCT:
>>LEFT HANDERS CAN BITE AND BITE QUICKLY!
They can bite at slow or fast speeds.
Ballast (which you passenger was) should always be added far back and
out towards the sidecar wheel.
Dual sport type rigs magnify the bad traits of left handers.
More lead helps
Less lead hurts
Swaybars help
Seasoned sidecarists will tend to say left handers are more of a
problem than right handers.
Light rigs are much more prown to have an issue than heavier ones.
Tail heavy rigs are more stable (LOOK AND SEE WHERE A SIDECAR
RACER'S PASSENGER IS WHEN THE RIGS ARE TURNED AWAY FROM THE
SIDECAR..THINK LEVERAGE)
Do not get overconfident in left handers as there is little to
nothing a rider can do once the point of no return is reached.<<
Right handers, however, can be controlled much better with experince.
Within reason of course. Having the sidecar wheel float above the road under acceleration is perfectly fine and 'normal' sidecar technique if riding briskly. As long as the entry into the turn was at a safe and sane speed the rider will be under control. Exceptions could be an undetected decreasing radius turn or a turn where the camber changes when already comitted to the turn.
Hello Folks,
I may second every word Claude said here.
One thing new to this thread is a 90-180º turn at speed.
It may be something you can do probably only with very light sidecars like MZ and Jawa and normal bike tires. I tried it with those two and would never again try it with a heavy passenger, only with very light ones who have good humor or little ballast.
On wet/sandy/muddy/snowy/grass... ground you are able to make a 180º turn within one lane at pretty high speed. With the MZ it was possible up to 40km/h getting into the turn and 35km/h getting out, because of the far back sidecar wheel and the weak tire grip.
With the Jawa its much more dificult, because the sidecar tire is much more ahead and the tires are stiffer. But still you can do a stunt like 180º turn with 30km/h getting in and 22km/h getting out.
But don't try it on dry grippy ground or in traffic, it would be fatal.
I am pretty sure it is impossible with car tires on the rig or with heavy bikes.
Mainly what you do is: push hard to the left (and break smoothly the front tire / depending on the situation / not allways), lift intentionally a fair amount the back wheel and force with your hind part the sidecar wheel to slide, when you finished the curve rotation, you (loosen the front brake and) drop the back wheel and acellerate.
As you see for some obvious reason it will not work with good road, grippy tires, side car wheels that are far to the front and heavy bikes.
2 cent of somebody who still cannot accept that his spline is not the best and that he should calm down as the grey hair is not possible to cover....
Sven Peter Pan
Originally written by Rotten Ralph on 6/8/2007 8:50 AM
While lefties can be a real problem, panic correction lands you on the shoulder if you don't pitchpole.The same panic correction on a right turn lands you in head-on traffic - much worse to my way of thinking.
Which is why you should practice your cornering techniques. Panic correction is another way of saying you screwed up - you abdicated control of your machine.
I advise against sliding lefts, particularly if you are using rear brake and/or throwing the rig abruptly into the turn. It is fun and on snow you can do 360s and 720s with seeming control, but if for any reason the sidecar wheel bites and weight transfer occurs you can nose over very very quickly, even on slick surfaces. I recommend against this game!
Front brake and throttle control along with proper weight shifting to drift the rig through the turn is not the same thing as throwing it into the corner and braking to bring the rig around. The first is controllable and can actually be used to reduce the lifting moment; the latter is relying on the inherent stability of the three wheels to keep you upright and if you miscalculate your speed, the available traction or the road surface there is little you can do to correct things once you are sliding.
Right!
Its something for exersise on snow or grass for to be prepared the day you need it... may be ... because some idiot invades your right of way!
...
Or as I told before in another thread ... if suddenly You have a deep hole in the left hand crossing that was hidden by a car.
Realy you should never tempt your luck, but beeing prepared in some kind of training helps a lot for the moment you need ability.
Best wishes
Sven Peter Pan
Thanks for all of the valuable input from those of you with mucho experience. Neophytes like me appreciate the tips on riding safely (and yes, I do practice on a vacant lot after almost every ride). Thus far I am really enjoying the sidecar rig.
Your last statement about decreasing radius downhill corners brought back some not pleasant memories, I was in West Virginia going through the mountains, I was in the right lane with a semi on my right, we were in a long sweeping right when I spotted a big yellow sign showing a picture of a big rig in a tipping configuration, the road started to really tighten up and fall off to the right, my rig went right over to the yellow line and I was about 6" from the semi, it took everything I had to give it more gas because I was already over my head in that corner but I did and that's what saved my buttski, I will NEVER forget it, I get chills just writing about it,,,,it was a close one.
There was (is?) a video of a fairly slow left turn rollover here:
If link does not work go to Google.com and type in:
sidecar roll over video
It will come up as a youtube video
There is also an illustraion of tip over lines posted at SCT today. You do not need to be a yahoo member or an SCT member to see the picture.
Click here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
Video:
somebody on that meeting was from Lübeck, only 20km north of my home.
As typical beer was in the game....
I advice my clients that most accidents happen because of too much selfconfidence and vanity...good example!
Right after the tip over somebody called "Zugabe, Zugabe" -Show us more, show us more.
Unlikely the last comment from the driver I didn't understand.
But on top of it allways the red banner stays up allthough hurt...
Here we go.
Regards from exil.
Sven Peter Pan
I would suggest that everyone read the "sidecar book" which is available on sidecar.com........and take a class! No matter how much you think you know there is someone out there that knows more. I have taken the Evergreen Saftey class and try and go to any seminars at rally's (like wing ding) and Take any classes offered if time permits (I will at WingDing this year take an Advance Sidecar riders course if enough sign up to have it).
Edumacashun never hurt no one!
That must be the age:
I read something that wasn't there when I whatched several times the video.
That meeting was probably way south in Germany because it was an ununderstandable dialect they spoke there. and the jacket said something like "libre" = Free in spanish not "...Wolf Lübeck" as my brain said.
excuse me
But it was a really nice surprise: I never new what Youtube is and I passed the whole morning watching Ural/mud-games. And I was amaized about nowerdays sidecar monsters in Europe. That are ships / not bikes.
have fun
Sven
