Words are written to convey the thoughts of the author to the student. If the thoughts are correct and the student 'hears' them correctly the mission has been acomplished.What you have written may have some merit but THE problem with it is that most will equate counter steering as turning left to go right, period. When a sidecar wheel comes up and the bars are turned left , yes, it will lean the rig to the right which in theory will steer it to the right. The real life problem is that the sidecar wheel will come down pretty quickly as you mentioned and then the rig will turn left as you described.The ultimate result is the rig turns left!!! What does anyone 'hear' when they get into this type of discussion from the printed word? They hear that as soon as the sidecar wheel comes up we enter into a steering reversion thing and now it steers like a solo bike. In practice it can kill you plain and simple!! Part of the problem is trying to teach something that will never ever make any sense to most people in practice. Part two of the problem is that people do not practice enough anyhow. If we would just forget about teaching steering reversion and just teach people to get a knack for riding a rig we will be a lot better off. The fine points you mentioned will not do anyone any good when coming off the printed page. In fact they will do more harm than good in most cases. If you have ridden a rig much at speed and are familar with cornering with the sidecar wheel floating just above the ground or maybe being on and off the pavement As you negotiate a turn you have learned to know how your grip on the bars in a subtle way will allow you to get through the turn with no problem. You have also probably learned how to play with the front brake while on the throttle to push the limits of the rear tire's slip angle or even surpass it to break the tire loose to get through a right hander swiftly. You may be familair with the comitment it takes in a turn to break traction of the rear wheel and maybe you have felt the fear that if it hooks back up at the wrong time you will be in trouble. The key word to most of this is controlled finesse and the only way to learn the true feeling and meaning of it is by practice. The sliding around in right handers has no real place on the street and should not be taught. Like I said in an earlier post and will probably say in future ones it is best to just forget about countersteering and learn how a rig handles through riding the darn thing in a way to push your own skill envelope under controlled and safe conditions. These ongoing discussions on steering reversion and countersteering as related to a sidecar rig confuse most more than help them. Yes, I have raced bikes also and do understand what countersteering is to a solo bike. I have also raced cars as a profession and know what a non winged sprint car will do when it bicycles in a turn on two wheels. Big deal. I hope you see my and other's point. There is a difference between flying the chair when at a balance point and cornering with the sidecar wheel in the air and they shoudl not ever be equated to being one and the same as the results can and have been disaterous! No offense and no feathers ruffled here. 🙂
Another Matchless fan! I traded my '62 650 twin for a 72 Harley Sprint about 6 years ago. As nice of a bike as it was, I think I got the better side of the deal.
I still own a Ducati Bronco, and a lot of parts for everything else.
KC
Claude, I hear what you are saying and I agree that some can "overthink" things and get them selves into trouble. Perhaps the message is: provide the necessary input (steering, braking, throttle etc) to achieve the desired result and practice, practice, practice.
If I remember my history correctly, Chuck Yeager discovered the input to the control surfaces on the X-1 reversed as he approached the speed of sound. His quick reflexes and adjustment to achieve the desired result saved his butt and put him the history books.
Cheers!
Originally written by Kirk on 2/2/2007 12:19 PM
Claude, I hear what you are saying and I agree that some can "overthink" things and get them selves into trouble. Perhaps the message is: provide the necessary input (steering, braking, throttle etc) to achieve the desired result and practice, practice, practice.
If I remember my history correctly, Chuck Yeager discovered the input to the control surfaces on the X-1 reversed as he approached the speed of sound. His quick reflexes and adjustment to achieve the desired result saved his butt and put him the history books.
Cheers!
Wonder if a sidecar rig would get into steering reversion reversion at the speed of sound??? Hmmm
Good posts kIRK 🙂
A newbie I am, but also can figure things out pretty well for myself by observering what I'm doing, reading others instructions, putting the two together, and reading betweent the lines.When I started to learn to ride a Rig, I followed the advice to put some ballast in the hack. After a couple of hundred kms' I felt the desparate need to learn to fly. I tried with the ballast for a short while and then slept on it. It came to me that if I took the ballast out it would fly with less effort, which is exactly what happens. I can now fly it with a monkey of any weight and safely control it in a straight line. Will continue to read and practice.If a class comes along, I'd heaviely question the instructor as to excatly what it is I'm going to get for my money. Although I wouldn't reccomend that everyone teach themselves.
Mark, Good to hear you have practiced keep it up (no pun intended). If you can get to where you can see there is a difference between flying the chair as you have learned and just corning hard with the chair coming off th eground snoothly you have done well. Yes, take a class but remember the dsatement you wrote above "Although I wouldn't reccomend that everyone teach themselves." ? This should be thought of as true whether one takes a class of not. No one will become a proficicent sidecarist by just taking a class. Classes shoudl teach some great basic knowledge and give the student some exrecises to practice with on their own. It is in the practice, just like you have done, that the skill levels will continue to rise. The ones who do not practice to expand their skills envelope are cheating themselvs. We are all learning more and more hopefully everytime we ride. This is part of the fun and challenge of sidecaring.
Wayne,
If Louisville, Ky. isn't too far (about 150 miles down I-65) and you want to give a sidecar class a shot you might want to contact:
Derby Motorcycle School
1325 Scholar St
Louisville, KY 40213
502 368 9918
They do (or at least they did) sidecar classes. and, when I last spoke with them, the cost was reasonable.
I've tried getting Indiana BMV and ABATE to consider adding sidecar training to their curriculum on a limited basis but there is no interest there and, quite honestly, a rather dismissive attitude toward sidecar training. The Ohio DMV never replied to my inquiries on the subject. I keep preaching the word and maybe I can change their attitudes if not their minds. I'll be doing my presentation again this year at the Motorcycle Education Conference in Indianapolis next month.
Bob Wrote:>>'02 VT1100 Shadow Ace Tourer / solo (for now...)<<We need to talk...geeze
Originally written by markhas on 2/3/2007 2:24 PM
A newbie I am, but also can figure things out pretty well for myself by observering what I'm doing, reading others instructions, putting the two together, and reading betweent the lines.When I started to learn to ride a Rig, I followed the advice to put some ballast in the hack. After a couple of hundred kms' I felt the desparate need to learn to fly. I tried with the ballast for a short while and then slept on it. It came to me that if I took the ballast out it would fly with less effort, which is exactly what happens. I can now fly it with a monkey of any weight and safely control it in a straight line. Will continue to read and practice.If a class comes along, I'd heaviely question the instructor as to excatly what it is I'm going to get for my money. Although I wouldn't reccomend that everyone teach themselves.
I am glad you are having fun and learning to drive your sidecar.
I would point out that, although I taught myself to drive my sidecar by reading(there wasn't much option at that time and place) and had ridden sidecars for many years before I took the S/TEP class at Evergreen and went on to finish the instructor course, I learned a number of useful techniques in class. This, even tho I would consider the instructors who taught my classes to be relative novices on the sidecar with very little sidecar experience outside of class. They more than made up for this because they were excellent teachers with a strong, well thought out program.
The thing is, the program has a building block class structure. Even if you already have some of the skills covered, eventually you come to something new, or a different approach. Learning on your own doesn't always allow you the perspective needed to figure out just what is happening. By starting with the basics, and working through the principles and skills step by step, everyone is on the same page and can begin to grasp what needs to be done to safely execute the next exercise. This transfers directly into skills used to have fun and be safe on the street.
The beginning lessons can be a bit tedious if it is stuff you think you already know. But it is important for the real beginners to go over it, and
having a range of experience present in the class can be helpful in getting some of the basics across. And the more experienced riders still need to understand intelectually some of the things they may do automatically in order to grasp some of the concepts and techniques we do later on. I always appreciate a class where the more experienced students have the patience to work through the first lessons with the rest of us. It actually can make the discussions of the basic lessons go much faster and more smoothly for everyone.
The internet and the books out there are great, but some of the information is difficult to grasp without coaching and there is some conflicting information out there. I seldom see a thread like this that doesn't contain some information that strikes me as wrong or misleading. In a classroom situation we can discuss it and demonstrate and practice what we are talking about. Sorting out internet advice can be a bit trickier.
It is great some of the more experienced sidecarists out there are willing to work with the new riders. Take advantage of thier knowledge and the guidance they offer. And read everything you can. But don't think this is a
good substitute for taking a class. I really believe classes with an organized approach to building skill sets are a huge benifit and are a resource you should seek out and take advantage of.
And, of course, find a safe place and practice. Don't stop practicing. Books won't do it alone. A lesson or two from your friendly dealer with his years of experience won't do it alone. Even a class with coaching won't do it alone. You gotta practice. You gotta think about it and you gotta practice some more. Really good riders never stop practicing and never stop learning.
The videos one sees on You Tube probably do more to present the abnormal and ways to not ride a sidecar than much else. Even the ones from the experienced riders seem to show off flying the chair as if it were just another parlor trick of the rig, about as equal as a Buel rider doing a headstand trick on his bike when he hits the front brake and hangs upended in mid-air before he gently lets himself down. It can mislead and sure makes one wonder if flying the chair is really necessary at all, other than to learn a new parlor trick. It sure seems that this is the first thing new sidecar drivers want to learn, but mostly to impress as opposed to learning as a safety issue. Older drivers frequently use the same thing to impress, as opposed to practice for a safety standpoint.
I can't speak for others but I only have one reason to fly the chsir: To be able to know what to do if it was done accidently for instance, an off camber curve.
I too, have seen these "show off" videos both two wheels and sidecar, especially those that can't keep it in their lane. That's not skill, that's plain stupidity.
Wayne
Thanks Bob.
I'm sure that you've done all you can to get something going here in Indiana but it's hard to get anyone in Indiana to do anything, I know!
I'll send them an email in Louisville and see what the schedule is and what group teaches the course.. In the past, I've had problems with taking Experienced Rider Courses because of the "one brand" attitude on the part of the instructors. If that would be the case in sidecar instruction (I'm talking about the mule) I would decline.
Thanks again.
wayne
RedMenace,I think there are some courses locally. I vaguely recall finding some last fall but they were charging something like $450.00 and I know that I will not get my money's worth at that price, probably only about $2.00 bucks worth. At that rate of exchange I expunged the info from my mind immediately.One thing about life long learning is that you learn to organize the problem (called issues today) and set a logical direction for understanding the "issues" involved. And if creative like me you'll have more coming out than you put in. That's called positive feedback. Couple that with the uncanny ability to apply the lessons I've learned starting at my father's side, while digging the John Deere out of the mud in the middle of 80 acre field to the Engineering courses in college I don't miss much. Not that you don't have something to teach me.I plan on being in Washington this summer and would like to stop by, maybe even attend a class. LOL How much you want?
Originally written by Bob Madigan on 2/4/2007 10:36 PM
Wayne,-----------snip--------------------------I've tried getting Indiana BMV and ABATE to consider adding sidecar training to their curriculum on a limited basis but there is no interest there and, quite honestly, a rather dismissive attitude toward sidecar training. The Ohio DMV never replied to my inquiries on the subject. I keep preaching the word and maybe I can change their attitudes if not their minds. I'll be doing my presentation again this year at the Motorcycle Education Conference in Indianapolis next month.
Wayne,If your trying to get a buracracy to do something you need to approach them from the legistrative side. The public servants won't listen to citizens off the street. But they'sll listen to someone who has his hands on the purse strings.Find an elected representative or two (includes State Senators if you have that level) and court the heck out of'em, bribe'em with money, sex, travel and hunting privaleges. They'll respond. And then you'll get your Sidecar Classes. 🙂
My classes cost $200 for Novice and $150 for the Advanced. You can find the schedule and more info here:
http://adventuresidecar.com/training06/training06.htm
Contact me if you are in the area, perhaps we can get together.
VW
