A phone tree is what you are caught in when you hear, "dial one for someone who doesn't care why you called", "dial two for someone who doesn't know what's what", "dial three to get sent to a dead end where you will lose you connection", "dial four to speak with any one of the above in a language not common in the US", "dial five to be moved to another phone tree that will offer you these choices all over again".
Originally written by ace on 3/13/2008 1:10 PM
Just bought subframe kit about 2 weeks ago from duantless motors,
for my bike spent about $580.00. Needless to say only one of the four connecting points worked.
I guess Jay did me a favor when he refused to sell me their
"Custom Fit" mounting kit for a Honda VTX1300s motorcycle.
When I told him I was mounting a Velorex 563 side, he said
it wasn't safe as one of his customers had bought the farm
riding a similar rig while negotiating a turn. He recommended
sending the side back where I bought it and buying a rig from
him that weighed no more than the Velorex. Go figure.
Anyway, thanks to Jay for saving me the $500.00+ for mounts.
The rig is up and running just fine without his mounts.
Dauntless has never been "Pro Velorex" from the git go. They advertise them for sale but prefer to mount other Russian sidecars, or their own products. No harm in that.
As far as someone "Buying the Farm" from having a Velorex attached goes, that's purely mythical: Inexperience, inattention, lack of training, excess speed, booze or drugs, empty unballasted sidecar, or any combination of these can cause a loss of control in a hard turn, regardless of the brand of motorcycle or sidecar.
Any sidecar outfit that has a heavy bike with a light sidecar will have a tendency to fly the chair in a hard right turn:
Unless the sidecar is weighted with either a passenger load or other ballast weight. In the days of the old lighter weight 560's, 562E's and 562S sidecar models, Jawa/Velorex used to recommend using up to 100# of ballast on their sidecars to keep that wheel down when mated with a heavier bike. That still goes but mount it low and to the rear.
The old 2/3rds bike to 1/3rd sidecar ratio works pretty well as a rule.
Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars
I, too, feel like I need to weigh in on this thread. Three years ago I turned to Dauntless to do some custom work on my Harley factory rig. All the work was very prfessionally done, Jay's team (especially Barry) answered all my questions and resolved one small issue I had and performed additional work free of charge.
Two years ago I went back to them to rig up a Champion sidecar to my Vulcan 2000.........perfect job! They even pioneered engineering new triple trees that look gorgeous.
Last year when I decided to go all our with a heavyweight touring rig they built a Liberty rig on my Goldwing, including leading link forks. Here they had to customize a set up for my anti-lock brakes and built me an auxilliary fuel cell. They did the few adjustments to set up and made some changes all free of charge.
I know they are slow sometimes but I have found Jay and his team excellent to work with and of the highest integrity. In my opinion his work has been a bargain.
Sometimes personalities don't mix and that may be what was experienced here, but I won't hesitate to recommend Dauntless to anyone who wants to set up a rig or to have custom work done.
Originally written by Concho on 3/14/2008 1:50 PM
Originally written by ace on 3/13/2008 1:10 PM
Just bought subframe kit about 2 weeks ago from duantless motors,
for my bike spent about $580.00. Needless to say only one of the four connecting points worked.I guess Jay did me a favor when he refused to sell me their
"Custom Fit" mounting kit for a Honda VTX1300s motorcycle.
When I told him I was mounting a Velorex 563 side, he said
it wasn't safe as one of his customers had bought the farm
riding a similar rig while negotiating a turn. He recommended
sending the side back where I bought it and buying a rig from
him that weighed no more than the Velorex. Go figure.Anyway, thanks to Jay for saving me the $500.00+ for mounts.
The rig is up and running just fine without his mounts.
Concho,
After seeing your previous posts on this I wanted to step in here and say that I am glad you got things sorted out.
So far Jay has been pretty helpfull to me. We talked on the phone and he gave me some suggestions on making the mounts fit, which require that I modify them and I have sent one back to him to be remade. Other than the fact that "Bolt On" parts didn't bolt on at all, he's been pretty good to deal with as far as customer support goes.
I'd also second what mwnelson said about personalities not mixing, I have definately seen that cause a lot of needless problems in customer service.
As far as subframes go they can be a fairly straight forward thing to build or quite complex. Most of the rigs we build have a subframe on them with almost all of these being built in house. The ones that are not built in house have come from various vendors with Jay being one of them.
We ship very few subframes alone as we are not geared up to reproduce them. I admire the ones who are. To build a subframe on the specific bike that is going to use it is one thing. To try and reproduce that subframe for shipment is another thing altogether. Motorcycle manufacturers have been known to change things on their frames witin even one model year. Just because one has a 1999 yamaguchie 900 cruiser does not mean that the next guy who has the same year and model bike will have the same exact frame design. Of course different model year can make a drastic difference. If one bracket is changed or one bolt hole location is moved in a model year or more commonly in a newer or older year of a given bike the subframe may have to be different.
If the owner has changed to an aftermarket exhaust system the subframe may need to be modified. This is not uncommon.
To reproduce subframes the process requires that one be built off of the bike. Then a jig must be built from that subframe so that other subframes can be done just like the first one. The jig MUST be accurate and can be pretty complex to acheive this. The first subframe off the jig shoudl be fitted on a bike to ensure it is accurate. Take a look at some of the subframes out there and think of what is required to built them. Then think about reproducing one of them and what it will take.
Have we had some issues with aftermarket subframes? Yes a few times but they were not huge concerns and were fixed without a mountian of trouble.
Folks , in the past I have built street rods, race cars and dune buggies for a living. These things also required aftermarket parts from time to time. We sometimes woudl fabricate the parts ourselves or sometimes we opted to purchase some parts from the aftermarket. Guess what? Same deal ... some mail order parts fit like a glove and some required some work to get them into place. This delima is a part of the territory to a certain extent. Does that make it acceptable or right? Not really but it can be reality. Do the vendors just slap stuff together and ship it out not caring about what problems the customer will have? Certainly not! The ones who do will not be in business very long.
I know the extent we go to to create a nice product and I feel that the vendors we use when we opt to go that route have the same mindset. Yes, we have used subframes and other parts from outside sources and ,yes, we have had some issues with some of the parts. I have yet to run up on one of these suppliers who were not concerned about the issues that came up. They all were glad to have them reported so a fix or whatever coudl be put into place on their end.
Excuses? None are acceptable in the eyes of some consumers. In fact these consumers are corect in that. The thing is this. If we can all work together to create a product and make it better through good feedback and responsible customer service we are doing well. We do not and will never live in a perfect world as much as we may want to. Mistakes wil be made and even though no real excuse for them can be voiced it is how we deal with them on both sides that counts.
If the vendors have failed on one point it could be argued that possibly they have made it sound like putting together a sidecar rig is a simple task for anyone. Given it is not like trying to build the space shuttle or
the Golden Gate bridge but some mechanical ability is required. To be blunt some are just not up to the task. Get some help locally and make the project a fun thing.
Some thoughts:
If a problem arises get in touch with the vendor as soon as possible
Try not to get frustrated too much we are all in this together.
The vendor should be concerned if he is reputable as the last thing they want is to have a bad p
Originally written by Ckretintimidator on 3/15/2008 12:15 AM
So far Jay has been pretty helpfull to me. We talked on the phone and he gave me some suggestions on making the mounts fit, which require that I modify them and I have sent one back to him to be remade. Other than the fact that "Bolt On" parts didn't bolt on at all, he's been pretty good to deal with as far as customer support goes.
I'd also second what mwnelson said about personalities not mixing, I have definately seen that cause a lot of needless problems in customer service.
Somrthing I ran in to with the rear sub on the Valkyrie might apply here as well. If I remember right, it attached to the frame in five different places. I had a monster of a time getting it to line up until my wife recited the line on the instructions that said "start all the bolts one or two threads, then tighten evenly. I had hooked it over the shock stud, wrapped it around the exhaust, and turned the kickstand bolt and shock nut on finger tight. None of the others lined up straight. Once I finished screaming and yelling and Barb pointed that out to me I loosened it up and miraculously, everything fit.
Not saying yours was that simple, but sometiimes it can be.
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/14/2008 4:50 PM
Concho,
After seeing your previous posts on this I wanted to step in here and say that I am glad you got things sorted out.
I consider it work in process, Claude. While it runs true, tracks fine,
I couldn't get it level with the universal "J" bar front lower mount.
Lonnie Cook has provided me with new hardware to overcome the leveling
situation. I'll probably never be entirely satisfied but that's my
nature. What fun would it be if everything was perfect?
Well said, Claude.
Taking into consideration motorcycle manufacturers tolerances and ongoing slight model year revisions; combined with the "Set" that welded components (like frames) get after miles or years of usage, throw in consumer add-ons and accessories and it is a wonder that so many after market parts and appurtenances fit as well as they do without further modification.
Back in the middle '90s when Jay was a voting member of the Sidecar Industry Council part of our mission was to attempt to standardize sidecar attachments so "Joe Sixpack" could attach a YYY sidecar to his XXX motorcycle and enjoy the pleasures of sidecaring and to help expand the sport, which in turn would benefit members of the industry.
Whether one is Pro or Anti Jay, the fact remains that Dauntless Motors has gone a long way in fulfilling this mission.
Most of us in the industry know we're not going to please everyone, every time, but we'll sure as hell try.
You don't have to love a guy to work with him (but it sure helps)!
Thanks for your time,
Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecars
I have not been at this Forum in quite some time and see with interest that the Daunless issue has again raised its ugly head. Since my last post a year ago and in response to some of the current posts, here are some additional comments:
1. I fully agree with Al Olme the I do owe Ron Campbell an appology if he is not the individual closing the previous thread. Ron, my sincere appologies.
2. Appologies are not at all difficult. I have never gotten one from Jay even though he admitted in emails to me that he had problems with the mounts for a BMW R1200C. Of course, I have never received restitution of any kind for four mounts of which three had to be cut and rewelded.
3. Caude's lengthy tome is very interesting and I am not in disagreement with what he states. My conclusion after reading it is that reasonable folks should not be selling mounds for specific bike's. However, Daunless does advertise and sell specific mounts for specific model bikes and should take care of problems when the mounts don't work. In my business we call that customer focus and customer service.
4. After my last post, I did file a complaint with Dauntless's local Better Business Bureau. In his reply to my complaint Jay outright lied. He stated that Kurt Liebhaber of SCF Sidecars had approached him about buying more mounts for the same bike model, therefore they could not be all that bad. Kurt told me that he had not talked to anyone at Dauntless in a long time and would not consider buying Jay's mounts -- I tend to belief Kurt long before I belief anything coming from Jay. Jay also stated to the BBB that his business policies prevented him for doing anything else for me. The fact is that no business policies were ever communicated, not as part of the order or the invoice.
5. I am sure that there are combinations of bikes-sidecars which Daunless has done very well. However, there are others where they have made mistakes -- in many of these Jay has not been willing to make restitution. Had Jay made any reasonable offer for a partial refund in the 20-25% range, my posts to this forum would be quite different. I would be writing that he had a problem, which many have at times, and that he took care of it; thank you very much! It is the sheer arrogance of people like him that motivates those he has wronged to let the world know. This thread and the previous one have been viewed more than 4000 times. Not taking care of current customers can become an expensive hobby in the long run!
A happy and safe riding season to everyone.
Wolf
Originally written by Hack'n on 3/15/2008 2:54 PM
Well said, Claude.
Taking into consideration motorcycle manufacturers tolerances and ongoing slight model year revisions; combined with the "Set" that welded components (like frames) get after miles or years of usage, throw in consumer add-ons and accessories and it is a wonder that so many after market parts and appurtenances fit as well as they do without further modification.
Back in the middle '90s when Jay was a voting member of the Sidecar Industry Council part of our mission was to attempt to standardize sidecar attachments so "Joe Sixpack" could attach a YYY sidecar to his XXX motorcycle and enjoy the pleasures of sidecaring and to help expand the sport, which in turn would benefit members of the industry.
Whether one is Pro or Anti Jay, the fact remains that Dauntless Motors has gone a long way in fulfilling this mission.
Most of us in the industry know we're not going to please everyone, every time, but we'll sure as hell try.You don't have to love a guy to work with him (but it sure helps)!
Thanks for your time,
Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecars
Lonnie,
I have used subframes from other sources from time to time that just did not fit exactly the way they should. When this happened we would modify the subframe as needed and move forward. I would tell the vendor, usualy after the fact, about what we had to do as a courtesy to him so he could addres the issue if needed. It is important to relaize that If an individual were to run into this same situation they should ALWAYS call the supplier as quickly as possible and see what can be done to work things out. If an individual takes it upon themselves to modify a product they just may end up shooting themselves in the foot as far as service goes from that supplier. Call first by all means.
We have also seen some subframes that we felt woudl be better if beefed up here and there. Same scenario. Not saying at all that they were substandard to begin with but we tend to work on the overkill side of things as a rule.
I think if anyone here were to get into building as many different projects as we have over the years they would know that the fitting of aftermarket products as a rule can be questionable from time to time. It is much better today tahn in years past on most producets but there are still issues.
As far as what Jay has attempted to do in the sidecar world related to subframe construction I feel he has done a decent job overall. It is a large undertaking to try and build ,duplicate and ship items such as subframes. Jay should be commended for geting ito this area as it has been an asset to the sidecar world overall.
For anyone who is dealing with the general public there will be challenges. For anyone who is fabricating items from a jig there will be some issues as well. Combine these two as a 'given' and the ability to work with people on the service side has to be a key ingredient.
NO business wants to segregate customers from themselves. Repeat business is important. Above that word or mouth related to how a person was treated or a problem was deallt with by a supplier is important also.
The old adage that a customer is always right is not true. What is true is that a customer always thinks they are right. If we can understand that and treat problems in a courteous way we have done well. Some folks will never be able to be happy no matter what . You could stab them with a brand new knife and they woudl still complain. Everyone is a little different.
Granted some business have the attiutde that they are right because they are the 'professional' and can tend to talk down to their customers. THAT is sad in that those customers are the ones who pay the bills and will help to do the same thing in the future either directly or indirectly.Thos ecustomers also are th eones who can provide quality feedback to help us improve what we do in the future. Customers are the one and only true asset any business has. Everything else i
I gusess everyone has good and bad experiences with every dealer. In my case Jay has been very good. He sent me a Ural hack, subframe and mounts and I did the job myself. He was quick to answer any questions I had and tried to give me unbiased advice when I decided to go with LL forks. Could have listened to him and saved $2400. Anyway, I don't like to trash anyone unless they really rip me off. Jay has even gone so far as to send me free replacement parts and accessories. I think sometimes the best resolution is a face to face discussion. I know it's not alway possible but when it is, it often works. My two cents.
What's so hard to understand? Some of us expect our money's worth. It shouldn’t be the fault of the bike owner that Jay doesn't have every possible piece of hardware for every application, but sends the one that “should” work. And it's certainly not by my fault that Jay bought the rights to build the Liberator, which is a bad design, bad engineering, or is just poorly manufactured. In the United States, you can’t misrepresent your product without suffering consequences. Can’t we all agree that if you buy something and it’s not what you paid for, you should get your money back? Jay tried to fix it, but it just isn’t fixable, PERIOD.
Those of you who sing the praises of Jay must realize that we, who have got the shaft from him, aren’t here just to slam him. I’m here in the hopes that somebody out there might know how I can get my money back out of him. I’m here to share my experience so that some other poor SOB won’t have to go through what I’m going through.
Mike
H-D has been building combinations without interruption since 1914.
Apples to Apples...A heavyweight motorcycle with a sidecar....Harley-Davidson is the only way to go.
Compare your metric with a generic hack to an engineered design which has proven itself over 94 years. Compare also your resale vs. your investment.
