claude sed:
"Uh..Oh...Guess you owe me one I better walk softly..lol"
hehehe 😉
Hey claude did Vernon just call you OLD??????????? lol
Originally written by hal77079 on 3/28/2006 2:21 PM
Again, youn seem to take great delight in taking things out of context just to make a point. Not much of a point, really.(snipped for brevity-see prior post for context 😉
speaking of taking things out of context-Geez Hal.
I don't think I have ever said that shifting weight was to be used by itself, only that it is a valuable teaching tool and that for some rigs and some riders, a very effective technique. I am sorry if I left you with that impression.
You did say that "Given that the
sidecar has been selected with the optimum weight for the bike and rider, weight
shifting is mainly cosmetic or for showing off. It helps a little, but only a
very little."
I am saying that A) your rather narrow definition of a well balanced rig leaves out a large number of rigs which are commonly in use, fun and perfectly safe providing you know how to operate them. I don't want a sidecar that handles like a pickup truck and I am pretty sure i am not alone.
B) Shifting weight is more than a very little help on these rigs and trying to define them as unsafe and discount a valuable technique is unrealistic and not very helpful
As for your analysis of what happens when a novice goes wide and attempts to countersteer, look at the top post in this thread. If they are really countersteering it is momentary input and they will not continue steering left unless they freeze at the controls. The rig should bobble left and the wheel come down. If they continue to steer left, they are not countersteering.
Further more, I believe the yellow book does explain countersteering as intitial input to begin a turn so there is no need to countersteer if you are already going the direction you want to go when the wheel comes up. This is not spelled out but is implied in the instructions, if I recall correctly. Am I remembering this wrong?
I am in compelete agreement that the statement that steering reversion occurs the moment the wheel leaves the ground is incorrect. I disagree that dire consequences are a likely result of this error .
If countersteering is misunderstood and misapplied the scenario you outline might occur. I think my explanation is both simpler and more likely than yours.
I think they STEER left more or less deliberately out of fear- they know turning right will lift the car, they either know or instinctively turn left to drop the car, they overcorrect and freeze or out of fear refuse to turn right failing to maintain the lane after the wheel comes down.
Hal if shifting weight makes so little difference why do you caution:"...And never should be started once the sidecar has left contact with
the road surface or the effect will be the opposite to what is expected." Since you expect the effect to be neglible, one should be able to shift weight before during or after entering the corner, with or without the wheel on the ground with no adverse results.
Rather than work out equations on paper from a static test, why don't YOU try this experiment.
Get a sidecar that can by lofted to the balance point or anywhere short of that without heroic effort- a Ural will do nicely.
In an open field mark out a circle and go clockwise around it bolt upright at a speed that raises the wheel, not to the balance point but close to it. Repeat the exercise at the exact same speed and arc with your weight shifted in-not some transplanted Aussie Texican body english- actually shift your weight in-feel the difference-it will be there.
Now repeat the experiment shifting your weight as far outside as you can. If you really do this I bet you will go to or past the ballance point.
This may be an irrelvent exercise with Bob's rig. This may be a significant exercise with Dave's new Ural.
Now let me clear- this is not how I recommend taking a corner on the street. I am in agreement and always have been, there is more to cornering safely than just shifting weight. But for some rigs it is an important component to cornering and if you exclude it from your b
"I am in compelete agreement that the statement that steering reversion occurs the moment the wheel leaves the ground."
This statement could have been taken directly from the Yellow book. It is totally WRONG.
Steering reversion is the what is also known as to turn the bars to the left, momentarily, for a solo machine, in order to get the bike to heel over to the right and to make a faster turn to the right. Or vice versa.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the sidecar wheel lifting off the pavement. It was dreamt up by Hough and only Hough has published this. On the other hand, you will find that all the German BVDM scientific journals, all the books on racing, all the racing peers agree that any 2-track machine, ie a bike with a sidecar, will only be able to perform the steering reversion trick when at the point of balance which is when the center of gravity lies over the tipover line which is between the front wheel and the rear wheel - just as it is for ANY 2-track vechile - whether a cement truck or a SUV or an 18-wheeler - all of these can be countersteered or be subjected to steering revision when under these conditions - not when one of its wheels is just off the sidewall. That is just a silly myth which only Hough dreamt up!
OK I am going to stick my big nose in this thing,and say, I have been rideing and driving sidecars for a long time and over many miles. I think that everyone is trying to make to big of a thing about driving a rig. The imporant thing is to learn what YOUR rig does in a certian situation and pracstice doing that, one also needs to be told or shone the right way to do it. There is no reason to go in to all the big discusion of what is taught right or wrong it only brings up confuson to the new rider. The rider shought learn to do what ever it takes to drive there own rig safley. NO two rigs drive the same way. All this talk just brings up CONFUSION
My .02 for what it is worth
Ron in Co
Ron - you are absolutely correct in your assessment - there is just too many trying to spin the story about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That is why I have tried to point out consistently, that there are many techniques and that each person has his/her own particular style that he/she develops. True, may need some initial guidance, but not rigid rules. Above all, guidelines must be based on facts and real life and not on a bunch of hooey. There is too much of that out there. Never try to drive someone elses game. Always drive your pwn!
My apologies, Hal, that was a typo which I corrected. What I meant to say is:
"I am in compelete agreement(with you, Hal) that the statement that steering reversion occurs the moment the wheel leaves the ground, is wrong."
I was paraphrasing what i recall reading in the Yellow Book( I have misplaced my copy, so I am relying on my memory). I have no arguement with you that sidecars are steered through corners, at least until they reach the balance point.
VW
Vernon wrote that Hal wrote in part :
Hal if shifting weight makes so little difference why do you caution:"...And never should be started once the sidecar has left contact with
the road surface or the effect will be the opposite to what is expected." Since you expect the effect to be neglible, one should be able to shift weight before during or after entering the corner, with or without the wheel on the ground with no adverse results.
======================================================================
I think it should be explained in a little more detail to make sense. The concern is that when shifting to the right 'after' one has overcooked it into a turn..or has gotten into a deecreasing radius turn or a turn where the camber all of a sudden changed the wrong way the possible hanging off 'action' or 'push' to get your body to the right can create an equal and opposite 'reaction' of tilting the bike farther to the left.
This can happen. If it does then matters can get worse real quick.
It will not happen in all cases as it depends on how far past the sane speed for th eroad conditions one has already ventured. This is why your statement ,Vernion, is not totally true when it says: " one should be able to shift weight before during or after entering the corner, with or without the wheel on the ground with no adverse results."
Do this experiment:
Get someone to lift th esidecar wheel up to the balance point or close to it with you in the saddle.The move quickly with your whole body to the right as if you were doing a panic hang off. If it is not done with care the person who is holding the sidecar wheel up for you will have to try and keep it down initially instead of feel your weight. A lot depends on how you execute the hang off BUT IT CAN BE POTENTIALLY LETHAL in the real world to try and save a rig by jumping off the saddle to the right.Too bad we can only try to express thsi stuff in words here as it may be difficult for some to understand.
Moving forward...I really wish more was taught pertaining to entering a turn at the right position on the road. Taking a late apex in order to see through the turn before comitting to it. Lane position is very important in spirited riding. We can enter a turn high,out near the centerline, at a resonable speed and see more of what the turn is going to offer. When we feel we have determined what is coming up we can accelerate all we want to and be in control! If the sidecar wheel gets light we can feather the front brake to help utilize all of the slip angle our rear tire has ..we can even have the sidecar wheel rise above the road surface and hover above the road while under heavy throtle and be in total control. If we get a little too high with the wheel all we have to do is slow down a little in a smooth manner. Fast cornering has a lot more to do with road position and throttle application on the mid to end of the turn than it does with getting into a turn at a great speed. It is much harder to 'gather up' a rig that has gotten in too deep than it is to control a rig when under power. How do we get a handle on this stuff. Classes should teach it with much emphasis.After that? Practice !!! If we teach right then students can practice right. If they are taught wrong then they practice wrong and can spend a lot of time defending what they learned even though it was wrong. The above description of cornering has exactly nothing to do with steering reversion.
If someone wants to hang off fine. It wil help some on some rigs and more on others. Face it , hanging off is nothing more than moving ballast around (yo butt). There are still imits ...all of th eprevious stuff is stil true whether hanging off or not. The diference is a possible small increase in cornering speed if one hangs off. Getting in trouble is stil getting in trouble for th esame reasons....difence is you may be getting in trouble at a slightly faster spped. David L. Hough said that people get into troubel because they don't hang off. This is simply not true. He also said that if you don't h
An excellent and well reasoned analysis, Claude.
The issues you raise regarding lane position, throttle and brake control and lines through the corner are all addressed as part of cornering technique as taught in S/TEP classes.
Abrupt input is going to have unwished for results even without the concern for equal and opposite reaction.
I wonder if you would get the same result with your experiment if you moved smoothly and used only the inside foot peg and handgrip?
Wish I could try it, but I am currently without a sidecar! Hope to remedy that in the near future-should have 4 up and running soon. I will get back to you with my results 😉
I really feel we are all much closer in thought and deed than it might seem to the casual onlooker who might chance upon an occasional lurk at a post. I refer to what Claude says as straightening out the bends. If the road engineers want to see how they should have really laid out their roads then they really should have followed my tracks sometime, especially when I missed that blasted turn and plowed straight through the brush to rejoin the road just a bit further yon! Fortunatently the brush was light. And I think that what Claude was refering to was that to every action there is an equal and oposite reaction - so, when the rig is already balanced against the cornering forces and then you deceide to throw your weight, now you are adding to an unbalanced couple force with unpredictable results. You have to get your weigtht transfer before the turn or at least while ALL wheels are on the ground and you have something to throw your weight against. Otherwise, what is there to offset the sudden weight change? Here you need to draw you compound force diagram complete with centrifugal forces, overturning couples, restoring couples, and add in the weight change effect with the wheel OFF the ground to see exactly what Claude is talking about. It is anything but a simple solution. Not even sure I can solve this one. But there is a guy I know with dual Ph. Ds from Harvard and Yale I know I can call upon.
Hal, I am sure we are closer to being in agreement in most respects than would be apparent to the casual observer!
I know what Claude is saying regarding equal and opposite reaction. I have been mulling this over a t least since the issue was raised sometime ago in a thread on SCT.
I am wondering if it makes any difference which side of the tipover line the force of your movement is applied to and if your movement is a smooth continuation of a shift initiated prior to the turn but continued as you turn, rather than an abrupt movement initiated after you are in the turn as a reaction to lifting the wheel? (that was kind of awkward- do you get my drift? )
Just thinking out loud- haven't had the opportunity to try it- I generally do shift my weight in corners(as you may have guessed) and try to select my line and speed as well as move my weight inside before I get in the turn - just speculating on what opportunities for correction might be available for use after you have committed to the turn. You can widen your line-this is going to be limited by lane width, traffic, maybe road surface and wether or not the turn has a decreasing radius. You can brake, use throttle and front brake to increase your slip angle. What else?
Originally written by hal77079 on 3/28/2006 7:44 PM
I really feel we are all much closer in thought and deed than it might seem to the casual onlooker who might chance upon an occasional lurk at a post. I refer to what Claude says as straightening out the bends. If the road engineers want to see how they should have really laid out their roads then they really should have followed my tracks sometime, especially when I missed that blasted turn and plowed straight through the brush to rejoin the road just a bit further yon! Fortunatently the brush was light. And I think that what Claude was refering to was that to every action there is an equal and oposite reaction - so, when the rig is already balanced against the cornering forces and then you deceide to throw your weight, now you are adding to an unbalanced couple force with unpredictable results. You have to get your weigtht transfer before the turn or at least while ALL wheels are on the ground and you have something to throw your weight against. Otherwise, what is there to offset the sudden weight change? Here you need to draw you compound force diagram complete with centrifugal forces, overturning couples, restoring couples, and add in the weight change effect with the wheel OFF the ground to see exactly what Claude is talking about. It is anything but a simple solution. Not even sure I can solve this one. But there is a guy I know with dual Ph. Ds from Harvard and Yale I know I can call upon.
("parade" activity deleted by a-ron)
That being said, having the sidecar so high in the air is pretty much useless, (illegal-but fun-driving manuvers deleted by a-ron)...Plus, it is hell on wheelbearings.
Really. Isn't most of this argument just petty semantics? OK. We can all pretty much agree that "steering revision" DOES NOT OCCUR the moment the sidecar wheel leaves the ground. If you believe that "hanging off" does not affect the handling of the sidecar I guess you have never done it-or needed to do it. Personally, on my rig it does make a difference. It was taught in the sidecar class I took, and I'm glad it was. The instructor showed us students that "hanging off or transfering weight is just another tool in your personal driving skills toolbox."
There is a major point to be made here. Besides maybe two identical unmodified new Urals, NO TWO RIGS ARE THE SAME. Many here have talked about differences that affect handling: Width, weight and ballast(this includes passengers) have all been talked to death, but what about height? Total suspension travel? Height of driver? When one talks about cantilevered weight and centripedal forces, height is a major factor. For example:
I'm following Vernon around some fun roads, just a bit spirited 😉 He is on his old Tiger/Sputnick rig, which is quite tall and has lots of soggy dirt-type suspension. He's got camping gear and crap in the car. He's hanging off nearly every turn.
I'm on the Rat-a-cade. 1400cc's of flat black glory. My rig is low-probably a foot lower overall, has pretty stiff suspenders with short travel, camping gear in sidecar, and I'm probably about the same weight, but quite a bit shorter than Vernon. I don't need to move around-at least at the speeds we were doing...
The center of gravity on Vernon's rig is probably a foot higher than mine. He sits 8"-10" higher, and has probably 6" of suspension travel more than me. Some rigs tip around and transfer weight around more than others. This is why it is important to know how to MOVE ABOUT. I'm not saying you have to all the time, but it is another tool to be used when appropriate.
I tell people "not in the know" who ask about driving a rig: Its just like sailing a catamaran with the mast on one hull. If you sail you know.
Aaron
Seattle
BTW- You guys have way too much free time to be writing these page long disertations on "steering revision" and "hanging off".
Originally written by a-ron on 3/28/2006 10:23 PM
BTW- You guys have way too much free time to be writing these page long disertations on "steering revision" and "hanging off".
Amen!
Aaron,
You are absolutly right! Different rigs act differently...this is no diferent than saying different cars act diferently. Putting a corvette against a CJ5 Jeep in the twisites is absurd. So is comparing a well set up pavement oriented sidecar rig against a dual sport type rig in the twisties.
Sidecar jockeys need to be familiar with the rig they are on. The only contention is that to say one must hang off to drive a sidecar outfit is just wrong.
Last year a friend who was thinking of getting a sidecar was taken for a ride in a sidecar rig. It was a K12RS with a huge Hannigan on it. When they got to the first right hander the driver got off th eseat and almost climbed into the sidecar with her. Thye were not going fast. This rig is a very stable outfit too. She asked th eguy what the heck was he doing and he said that was the proper way to ride a sidecar and she would have to do it too. It was said that those who do not do this had not been trained properly! Needless to say she was not impressed at these gymnastics and ,as some others have stated, was considering that she may not want a hack after all if she HAD to be a gymnist. Later on I took her for a spirited ride in our sidecar and after that spent a day teaching her to ride my rig. She is now planning to have a Hannigan installed on her K11 this spring. Misinformation would have probably run her away from sidecars. This is not the first time we have seen these types of things happen...too bad really.
Much of what we have seen expressed here is related to thing sin the past that were taught in error. It is good to see that today the false ideas about steering reversion have finally begun to be realized. It is also good that although hanging off is being taught it is taught in a different manner than it was by some in the past. I would like to attend Vernon's classes someday. I am very confident that he is a good sidecar jockey and is dedicated to the cause of training. This is a good thing. From all he has written here it I think this has been confirmed.
As far as us wackos writing so much on this? If it helps someone somewhere better understand what is going on then it is not a bad thing.
If it was condensed into one article it may even be a good read.
Gotta admit that picking th esidecar up to get rid of tailgaters works pretty good. On the right rig tailgaters are not usually a problem though...lol..just kidding.
THIS HAS BEEN ALOT OF FUN TO READ AND WATCH YOUR RESPONSES....
I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT IF THE 3 OF YOU WOULD BRING THIS SUBJECT UP AT A RALLY AND DEMONSTRATE YOUR IDEAS ON THIS SUBJECT.
EXPRESSING YOUR IDEAS AND CONCEPTS ON THIS SUBJECT IS GREAT BUT SHOWING THEM IN PERSON IS BEST.
EVERY RIG HANDLES DIFFERENTLY, EVERY DRIVER HANDLES THE ROAD DIFFERENTLY,EVERY ROAD IS DIFFERENT(PAVED AND UNPAVED).
I THINK ITS ALSO IMPORTANT THAT THE MEMBERS AND GUEST WHO READ THESE POST UNDERSTAND THAT ALL 3 OF YOU ARE DIFFERENT AND YOUR TECHNIQUES AND SKILLS HAVE BEEN REFINED OVER TIME AND MANY MILES OF DRIVING A SIDECAR. THEY SHOULD ALSO REALIZE THAT ALL 3 OF YOU AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER HAVE PUSHED YOUR SKILLS AND RIGS TO THE LIMITS AND PROBABLY CRASHED,FLIPPED, OR GOT INTO SOME TYPE OF SITUATION WHERE YOU COULD NOT RECOVER.
WHATS IMPORTANT IS THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT THERE ARE LIMITS TO WHAT THE DRIVER CAN DO AND WHAT THE RIG CAN DO IN A PARTICULAR PLACE AT A PARTICLUAR TIME. NOT EVERY0NE WANTS TO PUSH THEIR RIGS TO THE LIMIT.
EVERYONE HAS TO PRATICE AND LEARN THOSE LIMITS AND IMPROVE ON THEIR SKILLS.
THE MORE YOU BECOME ONE WITH YOU RIG AND THE ROAD THE BETTER OFF YOU WILL BE.
THE 3 OF YOU ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO THE SIDECAR WORLD. IAM GLAD YOU DON'T AGREE ON SOME ASPECTS SO THAT WE CAN LEARN MORE.
WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT NEWCOMERS ARE NOT TAUGHT INCORRECTLY AND THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT SCARED OFF BY THOSE WOULD THINK THEY KNOW SOMETHING AND SHOULD KEEP THEIR OPTIONS TO THEMSELVES.
KEEP IT COMING
