Claude, let me apologize is I misstated Hal's position. My position is somewhere between what I have seen posted by Hal and that of Mr.Hough, if I understand them correctly(which I may not). I was quoting Hal(out of context) about him referring to flying the sidecar as a foolhardy stunt. I was thinking about his remarks about the "Yellow Book" and his discussions of steering reversion and his recent discussions of shifting body weight when I suggested he felt it was filled with dangerous misinformation. I think he is mistaken on these points but I do think they are worthy of discussion. I prefer that discussion to take place in class for beginners and face to face for us old farts. I regret I have not had the opportunity to do so with Hal or you. Doesn't look like I will be able to travel to your side of the mountains any time soon.
I don't want this thread to turn into the same unresolvable morass that has cropped up around these questions on SideCarTalk.
My position is this:
I acknowledge there seems to be some disagreement over the validity of teaching flying the sidecar, when and if steering reversion occurs, shifting body weight, the amount of ballast that is prudent to carry, if ballast should be permenant and probably a host of other issues.
I think it is valuable to learn to fly the sidecar because it teaches at what point that will occur with your rig and that it is controlable and need not be feared. I have not come to a definative conclusion regarding doing this on public streets. It is tolerated here. It isn't as dangerous as people seem to think it is, but it may not be the image we want the public to have of the sidecarring community. Beginners should concentrate on basic control and defensive driving. Perhaps we all should.
I acknowledge flying the sidecar is hard on various components. Adding a sidecar to a motorcycle is hard on the bike-flying the sidecar, hard cornering and fast travel over rough ground magnify these stresses.
Urals are better suited to these activities because they were designed from the git go to have a sidecar. I have never seen a frame break on a Ural, certainly not from flying it. Any bike with a sidecar should be inspected regularly for damage caused by these stresses and weak points should be beefed up to take the stress as they are discovered. Urals have suspect quality control(in my opinion) and for that reason extra vigilance is prudent. Any bike that is used hard with a sidecar should get extra attention and be built to take unusual stress. It is unrealistic to simply plan to avoid stress.
I beleive that turning away from the sidecar(left turns for most of us) poses amuch greater and hidden danger of upset than tturning right does. If you live in fear of lifting the sidecar and load it with so much ballast that it can not come up in any likely circumstance you have probably dangerously compromised you stability in left turns. Obviously, this is different for different rigs, but for the more common combos over here, certainly for rigs like Urals and BMWS with medium to light sidecars, this holds true(in my opinion).
I strongly believe that shifting body weight is a valuable tool when cornering, should be taught, should be understood and, when applicable should be used. Some rigs lend themselves better to this technique than others, but the forces involved are there regardless of the inherent stability of your rig. Understanding those forces is important to being able to get through a corner swiftly and safely and is integral to being able to sucessfully take evasive action in emergencies. I believe it is foolish, dangerous and irresponsible to suggest otherwise. Which Hal seems to have done recently.
Counter steering and steering reversion seems to be something of a red flag and more of a red herring. If it occurs, it probably occurs at the balance point. Hal and David probably, in thheir heart of hearts agree on this. They both seem to be hung up on thier particular definitions of terms such as"countersteering" and "flying". I think that is semantics a
There certainly is a lot of misinformation out in sidecar land and by a lot of folks who really should know better.
First - if I did refer to flying the chair as a foolhard stunt that was in the context of those who seem to think it is real cool to drive up and down the public roads with the chair pointing heavenwards and literally scaring plain folks in family cars. This is dangerous and is not legal. It is irrisponsible and has no business on any public road. Ask any policeman. It is also not permitted in a public parking lot in most states. Go look up your own vehicle codes. It might be permitted on a private estate with the owners permission. Or on a public highway with a permit as part of a parade where it has been done legitimately in PA and in other states. If you are going to quote me, then PLEASE get it RIGHT!
Second, re the Yellow Book - there is quite a bit in it that is fine - re the clothing, re the general driving techniques, and other items. But there are several points that are just plain WRONG and I have challanged him both publically and privately to correct those points. Here it is not a mayyer of "he says - she says" but of universial truth. And here, I am in good ground. Hough says, or words to this effect, that at the very moment that the sidecar wheel lifts off the ground that one must countersteer or drive the sidecar rig as if it was a solo bike" And he goes on further to say that if you are driving in a straight line and the sidecar wheel hits a bump and comes off the ground that you also are into a steering reversion mnode.
Not only do these statements contradict all physical forces but the true facts were given long before I was born. Phil Irving, perhaps one of the greatest technical writers of all time, and the principle developer of the HRD Vincent - surely even you have heard of him, wrote way back in the 1930s that even though the sidecar wheel might come off the ground one continues to steer normally. Phil was a truly great sidecarist.
Also, the German BVDM, known for their precise technical grasp of all topics, shows that countersteering or stering reversion does not even begin to occur until you have lifted ther sidecar so high that you have raised the center of gravity over the tip-over line between the front wheel and the rear wheel.
Any high-school physics teacher will also tell you the same precise thing as will any racing driver and this occurs whether you have three wheels or four as long as it is a 2-track vehicle. It can have 6-wheels or eight. Again - does not matter. The theory is the same.
All I did was to go back to basics and to apply the same laws of physics that EVERYONE else does and we ALL come up with the same IDENTICAL conclusion - that is - except for David - who will not come up with ANY theory to describe where or how he came up with his thoughts.
He furhter describes it in many many pages in great detail in the old issues of the Sidecarist before he put it into the cirriculum and into the official training. It took quite a lot of explaining to get it removed from the training school program.
Now that we have gone over where and how we got to where - does lift the sidecar wheel have any benefit?
Of course it does. And I have always said that. But you must know what causes it and the right reasons that cause it to lift - not the wrong reasons. You have to understand a little about turning forces. And that means centrifugal force. And that leads to centrifugal moment or couple which is the couple that actually wants to turn your rig over - so it is not just about a force.
And what causes this force - why - it is based on your speed, well actually the square of your speed - so just a slight increase in speed can and does make a BIG difference to the centrifugal force and hence the overturning couple. So, those who blithly say that with a little bit of body english thay can increase their righthand turning speed by 30 mph are just being ridiculous - and yes - some on this post have made such outrageous claim
I don't see much if anything in your post which contradicts what I have posted here.
As I said, I believe Mr. Hough made an error in stating in his yellow book that steering reversion occurs at the moment the wheel leaves the pavement. It would be nice to see this revised in future editions, but David has moved on to other concerns and I doubt if it will happen. As I said, I do not beleive it is of much import in real world applications.
Your stance on the appropriateness of flying a sidecar in public is more extreme than my own(Damn I need a spell check;-) but I see your point and do not necessarily disagree with you.
AS I have stated here and elsewhere, shifting weight is more effective on some rigs than on others and more accessable to some people than to others. It is a valuable teaching tool and, where appropriate, a useful technique on the street. Accomodations must always be made for physical ability and for the characteristics of a particular rig, but in class, I want my students to demonstrate they understand why and where the weight should shift, and if they physically can, I want them to do so during the exercises. What they do on the street should be modified by their particular circumstances. Just my opinion.
You have stated that shifting weight makes little or no difference, but I know you understand this is more than "a little body English". I wonder why you feel body english is at all helpful if actually moving your butt over and down does so little?
I have read your books and recently reread them in the CD that you have so thoughtfully provided the USCA membership. I really do think they are good resources and do not hesitate to recommend them. I think it is wonderful that you have put so much effort into keeping these available and in compiling and writing them in the first place. I think some of your on line posts have been more extreme than these writings and frankly a little over the top. Again, it is not easy to discuss this stuff in writing - ideas are less fluid or dynamic than they might be in a real time conversation, and one may be less apt to give the benefit of the doubt to or catch the nuances of a developing thought from ones opposite in the dialogue. Please forgive me if that has happened in this exchange. I do stand by my positions stated here relating to the techniques we have been discussing. I am open to persuasion, but have yet to be persuaded my approach is mistaken.
As always, it is a pleasure and an education; thanks for your opinions.
VW
Specifically, on the weigtht issue, and the body english - it can be very helpful from the physcological factor and so its use is definitely justified. You think it is helping - and so it does. Confusious, etc.
However, from the actual benefit - that is easily determined as I have stated before and in my manuals. Just place a scale under the sidecar wheel. Then lean over or climb out as little or as much as you feel you can. Have a buddy read the actual weight change. Then go into the simple equations in the manual that relate to speed of turning and to weight shift. Plug in that number for a given rig and a given radius of curvature and read just how many mph difference it is. YES. It is a few. Maybe 3 or 4, or 5 or 6. But it is not 20 or 30. And that is the point. You need to balance it against the effort involved. For some it might be a great thing. For others very little. You just cannot generalize. And that is all I am saying. Especially when it is only ONE of several things that enhance cornering abilities. It is the taking of the one item and blowing it out of proportion to the almost total exclusion of all the other factors that go into good sidecar handling practices. Just put things into balance. OK?
Hal, you like equations, which is fine. When your formulas do not reflect real world experience I suspect an error in your formula. Body english may be decorative and psychological-I am sure it is when we depend upon your equations to justify it. I am not talking about body english as you have defined it. I know shifting your weight off the seat and as low as you can move it without impeding your use of the controls can make a big difference when cornering some rigs.
As for taking one bit and blowing it out of proportion, I certainly agree. You should not do that.
Weight shifting is only part of proper cornering technique. Proper cornering technique includes a number of things in addition to shifting your weight. Selecting an appropriate entering speed, a line which reduces cornering loads by straightening the corner(within the limits imposed by things such as the lane width, surface conditions and visbility through the turn), appropriate use of brakes and throttle to control your speed and slipangle of your tires/contact patches, setting your rig up so it is reasonably stable and rigid, maintaining your rig in good condition with decent brakes and tires, all these things go into getting around the corners safely and at reasonable speed. I think you and I agree upon this.
You might be able to get around a corner using just a couple of these factors, but it won't be good cornering technique and it isn't what we teach. You might not be able physically or mentally to combine all of these
things effectively-in which case your cornering ability will be compromised and you will need to modify your driving.
Just loading your sidecar with concrete so it can't lift or crawling through the corners to prevent lifting the sidecar wheel is not appropriate either. When I hear people(not you) saying things like "in three years and xx,ooo miles I have never lifted the wheel off the ground." and suggesting ballast be permanently attached so the wheel won't come up to someone driving a Ural I shudder. If you are driving something like a Goldwing/Hannigan hack and sticking to the highways, maybe you will never loft the wheel. But an R75 or a Ural? If the wheel never ever comes off the ground, you are either crawling through the corners or you have too much ballast and left turns may be compromised to the point of danger.
I don't think overturning the sidecar in right turns with the hack coming over the bike is at all common. I don't believe it is really even common to accidently reach the balance point.
I think over turning the rig in left turns with the bike coming over the sidecar while not common, happens much more frequently and there is less time and less options open to the pilot trying to recover.
What I think is common, particularly amongst novice sidecar operators, is the sidecar wheel comes up in a right turn, they freak out and go wide, crossing traffic or leaving the road. I don't think countersteering enters into it. The pliot simply freezes or overeacts and exagerates the rigs tendancy to go left when the wheel lofts.
The best way to combat this trend is to get beginners educated, teach them a comprehensive set of skills, including everything they can use to control their rigs in turns, during evasive manuvers and when braking. That includes but is not limited to shifting your weight. That includes but is not limited to appropriate entering speeds and reasonable ballast. That includes teaching them that lifting the sidecar wheel is not something to be feared. In my opinion.
VW
Red Memace said>>>>>>>>>>Just loading your sidecar with concrete so it can't lift or crawling through the corners to prevent lifting the sidecar wheel is not appropriate either. When I hear people(not you) saying things like "in three years and xx,ooo miles I have never lifted the wheel off the ground." and suggesting ballast be permanently attached so the wheel won't come up to someone driving a Ural I shudder. If you are driving something like a Goldwing/Hannigan hack and sticking to the highways, maybe you will never loft the wheel. But an R75 or a Ural? If the wheel never ever comes off the ground, you are either crawling through the corners or you have too much ballast and left turns may be compromised to the point of danger.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Vernon you are full of crap with that statement.I own an R75/5 and had a Terraplane tub on it for one year..I neve had to "hang off the sides" with it in corners. I did NOT use anany ballast, just my wife on a lot of rides and trips.I went for a ride with my local BMW club...they were all on 2 wheels, and we went thru a very twisty area for an afternoon ride. I had to slow down for the bikes in front of me on this ride.[without weight shifting] I DO NOT crawwl thru the turns. MY rig is very well balanced.When we regrouped at the restaurant, a member came over and asked me if I took SC lessons..we were really smokin thru those turns!! Made my day!Now I have a Motorvation FII on the bike,along with an R100RS engine, and it too is very well set up..with NO ballast.no need to hang off on the curves, or in town. I occaisionally lean slightly to the left or right, but that is a natural reaction in turns. Keeps me from sliding off the seat on turns.the SC wheel might have came up an inch or so on some of the right turns, but I never noticed it..my wife niether. she would have been banging on my leg if it did!
Bob, it is just my opinion. Not having seen you ride nor ridden your rig myself, I may be mistaken. My experience with BMW(airhead) rigs suggests your control would be enhanced by shifting your weight, but your rig may be wider or heavier than those I am more familiar with, and may behave differently.
And, with no disrespect intended, your wife in the sidecar counts as ballast, though, I suspect, not permenent ballast.
My point was that ballasting a light high rig in itself if not a bad thing, but ballasting to the point where lifting is hardly possible can and probably will compromise your handling in left turns and that lifting the sidecar in corners is not unusual in rigs similar to yours and is not necessarily a fearful thing. Blanket recommendations to use a lot of ballast and permenently install it, broad generalizations that shifting weight is not a useful tool, or that you never loft a wheel on these types of rigs are not accurate or useful(in my opinion).
I am glad you are happy with the performance and handling of your rig and wish you many safe and enjoyable miles.
VW
OK, Vernon, I understand it is 'your opinion'.I should have mentioned that my terraplane rig was fairly wide.about 70" total.The bike is a full dresser, with bags, windjammer,lowers, trunk, aux gas tank, solo saddle...car battery in the right saddlebag.My present FII rig is 76" wide, and very stable.I realize that lighter, narrower rigs will need [should have] permanent ballast, and many are not set up with enough width, making them hard to manage on turns.I had a Velorex 700? mounted on it for a short time ,and was very unhappy with it..too light, micky mouse mounts,and hard to get in and out for my wife. I found the TP soon after, and it was a world of difference, with the 3 point mount, trim adjuster ,and more weight..no need for ballast in it.much better bike/SC weight ratio.
Hi Bob...I guess it is all the cheese we Wisconsinites consume. My exerience with my Royal Stare Venture w/Sauer Sonnenwind car is the same as yours. I tend to ride with a group of Harley riders and definetly have to go slower with them than I normally do when alone. If that wheel comes up, it hasn't done so to any noticeable degree. For me, I would say that I am a bit more cautious on lefts than rights. Yes, on my URAL I could fly the car if I tried, but it really is not a speed rig and puttering around on our wisconsin back roads, w or w/o passenger was more about enjoying the ride than attempting to push the limits.
I love speed, I am a former AMA expert license holder, but when seem like good advice when I perchased my first hack was "if the corner is marked 50mph, don't exceed that speed, same for 15 or 25 or whatever.
Happy hackin', fred. f
Fred, that all sounds familiar!On the interstates, when neccesary I will push my rig to keep up with the traffic...75-80, but normally I just enjoy slowing it down, head for the backroads and twistys, and cruise around..no big hurry.The rig gives me a sense of well being and mellowness, I didnt get with riding my Beemer on 2 wheels for 25 years.I dont really like to ride in groups of 2 wheelers, as they are too Gung Ho, all they care about is getting thru the next curve as fast as they can, must be a macho thing.It would be fun seeing their faces when the look in the mirror and see me right behind.Glad to hear you enjoy the ride without climbing all over the bike. I have heard too many comments from wanna be Sc ists, saying they would like to get one but it looks like too much work to drive one, leaning, worrying about tipping over, ETC.I have converted a few, and they are VERY happy!
Again, youn seem to take great delight in taking things out of context just to make a point. Not much of a point, really.
First, re the test to see just how much the climbing out over the sidecar really helps, that is just to illustrate what effect that has by and of itself. Which is a little. And yes, every littlee bit helps. Which is what I have always said. Just keep it in perspective.
But taking a righthander is very much more than body english or climbing around over the sidecar. It involves ALL of the items I listed, and then a few more - something that I see you finally seem to agree to - so why all the fuss and arguement?
And I do agree with your statement "What I think is common, particularly amongst novice sidecar operators, is the sidecar wheel comes up in a right turn, they freak out and go wide, crossing traffic or leaving the road. " However, I then cannot come up with your conclusion "I don't think countersteering enters into it. The pliot simply freezes or overeacts and exagerates the rigs tendancy to go left when the wheel lofts" If this were true they would still be going to the right. They do not. They cut directly to the left. Exactly what would happen if they believed they had to countersteer. They would turn to the left andf they did turn to the left and they went the left and they did crash and burn. So while they did not actually countersteer it was their attempt to apply countersteering that led to their demise. And that is the problem. You must actually steer the rig as you would steer ANY 2-track vehicle. And the introduction into the class that sometimes you should steer and sometimes you should countersteer is totally confusing to the newbis who oftentimes has five, ten or fifteen years of countersteering experience. Far far better you impress upon him that a sidecar rig behaves as a pickup truck without power steering and be very careful on righthanders. As you get experience we will give you experience on how far and how much to go. And give him or her the BASICS so he or she can make intelligent decisions instead of the black art. I have heard of instructor advising their newbies on where and when it was time to go from steering to countersteering. With the correct foundation in the basics he or she would KNOW!
Besides, you do not have to perform ANY equations - just have fun and enjoy. I did not make up these equations. You will find all of them in any good text on science and physics - but it far better to know they are based on the real world than on some black art. The point to it is that you can find out what exactly is the benefit of the weight shift. But we do not depend entirely on that as I have stated again and again. We do a whole bunch of things besides. As I said - you can perform this test using YOUR definition - I wish that you would - with you shifting your weight off the seat and as low as you can without impeding your use of the controls. And get a buddy to take the reading. Not MY equations. I did not invent them. They existed long before I was born. I canna take any credit for their invention. Tell me what the difference is and give me your specs re other weights - and bike specs and the road conditions and I will see what the difference in speed is.
On the other hand - I really fail to see it would make any difference.
Hey Vernon..love the avatar picture of you on your posts...looks like maybe a right hander...dirt flying..sidecar wheel off the ground a little....but why aren't you hanging off??
No steering reversion either? Where you turning left to go right...NOT.
🙂
Duckin and runnin....
In the archived posts here at sidecar.com there is a thread initiated by David Hough..or David L. Hough which was called 'Advanced Driving Skills'. Much of what is being spoken of here was also in that thread. Being as David L. Hough is the man who wrote th ebook for Ural which was later modified a little and turned into what is called the Yellow Book and that was at one time the basis for the S/TEP training at Evergreen it may be interesting for someone to go back and read that thread. It has been said here by Vernon that the info presented in the book is in error. Verono os an accomplished sidecarists as is Hal Kendall who also has stated these facts. Anyone who knows and thinks it out for themselves will agree too. If anyone wishes to read that thread from october 2003 it can be found here:
http://www.sidecar.com/megabbs/thread-view.asp?threadid=348&posts=21
If that link did not work you can go to the top of the page here and go to the right and I think it is section 31 or 32 in th earchived threads.
Check it out.
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/28/2006 3:31 PM
Hey Vernon..love the avatar picture of you on your posts...looks like maybe a right hander...dirt flying..sidecar wheel off the ground a little....but why aren't you hanging off??
No steering reversion either? Where you turning left to go right...NOT.
🙂
Duckin and runnin....
LOL I was wondering if someone would call me on that 🙂 Takes an old master to rise to the bait 🙂
The photo is a little misleading and I was showing off for the camera. I had actually exited the corner and gone through a mudhole on a slight up hill straight stretch a little faster than necessary for the benifit of the photographer. I think my sidecar wheel hit a large submerged rock and threw me up in the air. That's what i get for showing off...
VW
Originally written by RedMenace on 3/28/2006 7:52 PM
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/28/2006 3:31 PM
Hey Vernon..love the avatar picture of you on your posts...looks like maybe a right hander...dirt flying..sidecar wheel off the ground a little....but why aren't you hanging off??
No steering reversion either? Where you turning left to go right...NOT.
🙂
Duckin and runnin....LOL I was wondering if someone would call me on that 🙂 Takes an old master to rise to the bait 🙂
The photo is a little misleading and I was showing off for the camera. I had actually exited the corner and gone through a mudhole on a slight up hill straight stretch a little faster than necessary for the benifit of the photographer. I think my sidecar wheel hit a large submerged rock and threw me up in the air. That's what i get for showing off...
VW
Uh..Oh...Guess you owe me one I better walk softly..lol
