You are talking about an entirely different scenario. Not mis-sizing of the tire but the difficulty of removing certain types of military tires from certain military vehicles, a very common phenomenon. Also seen often in non-military circles. Tires sometimes needing to be cut off with a cutting torch. Poor quality of materials used. Improper mounting procedures. Extremely harsh environment. Had hell beaten out of the tires and wheels. Not caused by fitting auto tires onto MC rims. Nice try. Stay on topic.
Originally written by thekid on 7/9/2006 5:19 PM
You can say what you want but when I was in the military 1962-1972 we use to use tire irons to remove and install tires.Some were so missed sized that we split the rubber to the belt then overlowed the trucks by 50% and went. I never saw any fail!!
Henry
At 140 psi that steel in the rim for the beads did not stretch but the rubber surrounding the steel wires surely did. You were extremely lucky - you really do noy know just how lucky you were. You should have gone and bought one lottery ticket and become an instant millionaire that is how lucky you were.
In retrospect, pumping to the maximum allowable pressure and holding for a half hour, then releasing, then repeating as often as necessary, you were on the right path, should have gotten you there fairly quickly.
There is enough explosive force in a car tire about equal to a half stick of dynamite, or about enough to blow you to the top of the Empire State Building - not quite enough to reach to the Sears in Chicago.
Hal
May I respectfully suggest some self education on topic. Go and blow some tires up and observe the consequences. Safely, of course. Guess I have blown up about three or four first hand up close and personal. Not a real pretty sight. Tends to make a believer outa you. Beats all this fancy book theory bullshit. Of course, this does not include the several
on the road blowouts on outfits and cars that I have taken as a matter of course. Kinda makes one callous to topic. Still, I kinda believe in the sanctity of life and that others should be protected from their ignorance.
RIDE SAFE
Hal
Originally written by hackellis on 7/9/2006 4:36 PM
The observation that I get from this thread is the following:
1. People follow the self appointed experts (no matter what the qualifications) blindly. Example this thread.
2. Because someone writes a book does not make them an expert in any way shape or form. Ken Lay's book on ethics.
3. Age or years of experience counts for something? Most people learn what they will on any subject in the first few months and repeat this knowledge over the years.
4. The reluctance to accept or even consider an opposing view. The sign of insecurity.I do feel sorry for some of you.
Mike
Apparently, your position on the tires is not as solid as you would like or you would not get so upset regarding this subject.
I suggest that everyone takes a chill pill regarding the subject and look at the facts only. Don't take this so personal. I am not going to take over the leadership of this micro world. You are all safe.
Some more observations:
Does only the participants of this site constitute the entire knowledge of sidecaring in the US? The fellow I spoke to regarding this subject and in my opinion has my respect and admiration would not participate with a on line forum like this He thinks that the views are a joke regarding the 15" car tires and motorcycles. He read in detail the post regarding the Car & Rim association and laughed. He knew the author and shook his head and pointed out that there are advantages being located in California versus some of the rural areas of the US. In California the technology knowledge base is greater.
It is obvious that your opinions will not change even though there are mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Originally written by hackellis on 7/9/2006 4:30 PM
Apparently, your position on the tires is not as solid as you would like or you would not get so upset regarding this subject.
I suggest that everyone takes a chill pill regarding the subject and look at the facts only. Don't take this so personal. I am not going to take over the leadership of this micro world. You are all safe.
Some more observations:
Does only the participants of this site constitute the entire knowledge of sidecaring in the US? The fellow I spoke to regarding this subject and in my opinion has my respect and admiration would not participate with a on line forum like this He thinks that the views are a joke regarding the 15" car tires and motorcycles. He read in detail the post regarding the Car & Rim association and laughed. He knew the author and shook his head and pointed out that there are advantages being located in California versus some of the rural areas of the US. In California the technology knowledge base is greater.
It is obvious that your opinions will not change even though there are mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Seems to me that you're more upset than anyone here Mike. And now to say that people in California are smarter than those who live elsewhere? Or I guess it wasn't you who said that, you were quoting a friend. But at any rate give me a break man! Your brilliance is overshadowed only by your ego.
Gee, this was about like some of the political issues I've been involved in. Just as in politics, it's VERY tough to change someone's position and even "facts" don't sway some. Just look at how some feel about global warming. My guess? It's gonna heat up your tires in the future whether they be MC or cage.
Sidecar Ron
No one is upset - quite the contrary. Your so called expert - who is nameless - and likely will remain so - has little concept of who or what the Tire & Rim Assn. is. Especially when you try to point out that some tire company, long out of business, was once claimed as having some influence on the problem of ill-fitting tires. Talk about being influenced by stories told out of school.
We are still waiting for any factual accounts from your side. Not more bullcrap.
Safe riding
Hal
Hal,
My Wife and I recently saw the movie 'The World's Fastest Indian'. It was a great human interest story regarding the determination of one man. There is one scene in the movie that reminds me of you. Burt (played by Sir Anthony Hopkins) arrived at the Bonniville Salt flats in Utah and wanted to particapate and run his motorcycle. There were two fellows behind the sign up table instisting that it could not be done and pointed to the offical rule book. The two men went even further to mock Burt infront of a crowd of people who also started to mock Burt. There was no doubt in the minds of the two men and the crowd that Burt was a nut and that the bike would probably not run. The moral to the story was that through sure determination Burt set the world land speed record. Hal, you remind of one of the fellows at the desk.
Mike
So, once again because we ask you to back up your claims your response is to ridicule the participants and call them names. This is sure reminding me of your claims against Jay Giese. That was another case of trolling for an argument and not being able to back up what you say.
Mike,
Respectively, you missed the point by a mile both times. You may want to stay out of this conversation.
Mike
No response is necessary against those that are blind and truly cannot see. They cannot help themselves. They are to be pitied.
Hal
============
Originally written by SidecarMike on 7/9/2006 9:17 PM
So, once again because we ask you to back up your claims your response is to ridicule the participants and call them names. This is sure reminding me of your claims against Jay Giese. That was another case of trolling for an argument and not being able to back up what you say.
To sum up and lay aside the retoric and BS:
So far - all the sidecar manufacturers that have a recognized e-mail address and who have responded are 100% against the practice of installing a 15" auto tire onto a 15" unmodified MC rim.
All auto tire installers I have contacted personally are 100% against the practice of installing a 15" auto tire onto a 15" unmodified MC rim.
Not a single auto tire installer I have contacted is for the practice of installing a 15" auto tire onto a 15" unmodified MC rim.
Not a single sidecar manufacturer I have contacted is for this practice.
OOPS! I lied. Doug Bingham has. He has fitted Antique Auto Car Tires onto Harley Davidsons - but guess what - all H-Ds have 16 inch rims so that does not even enter our discussions. He still does. Have no problem with that. Those rim sizes for the auto and the MC are identical in that size.
I have fitted 18 inch Auto Balloon tires onto 18 inch MC rims. Again - not the same problem. Those rim sizes for the auto and the MC are identical in that size.
Claude reports that he has fitted 17 inch auto tires onto 17 inch MC rims. Again - not the same problem. Those rim sizes for the auto and the MC are identical in that size.
Likewise, the Watsonian 10 inch wheel. That is designed for the 10 inch auto tire. Does not count either.
The 125SR15 and 135SR15 can be fitted with care to the 15 inch MC rim - again - not an issue. The tire is small enough to be flexible and will slip on with care. Available from any Citreon 2CV dealer. Just Google.
It is only the BIG 165SR15 tires fitted onto the stock narrow 15 inch MC rim is where we have a big potential problem.
It can and will be resolved when somebody will step forward with a detailed outline of HOW to do it safely, giving their name and identification and who will do it with an identifiable address and come out of hiding. So far, all we have is smoking wind and mirrors. Somebody did it, but we do not know who or how. Sorry - not good enough.
So it stands - to do it safely, install an auto rim, or turn the rim to meet the auto rim specifications. Both conditions can be met. Hence, no need for any controversy.
Safe riding.
Facts that are known.
Provided are 5 photo's of successful installation of car tires on a 15" rim. Link to a technical home page of Pokie with a link to his sidecar installation including his fabrication of a sidecar rig to the installation of the 15" car tire. There has been old reports of installation issues with the car tire on the rim and a cage is recommended for installation during filling with air (setting the bead).
The end!
We have been to Pokies home page. He provides zero critical installation details or modifications either. Another dead end. There are a few others who have done this but no one will step forwards with details.
Your continual prodding has not helped them to come forward. The cage will NOT help one bit with the stretching of the rubber from the wire cord. You still do not get it. Please study tire construction and how a tire is made. And just what happens when you stretch the tire over a rim that is too big for the tire it is designed to fit. Just how responsible will you be for someone else when he gets blown up following your advice?
Safe riding
From Dunlop:
...Note that they specifically warn against the 15" wheel tire combination even though they also say not to mount a car tire on a motorcycle rim. This makes sense according to what we have been saying in the previous posts. Thye could have just said " don't mount a car tire on a cycle rim" and left it at that but they did not do so. They specifically call out the 15" combination. Why? Because as stated previously this is the main 'bad boy' as the rim size -vs- tire size is so much different than in the other rim sizes out there.
All of the following goes directly hand in hand with what we have posted as a warning up to this point.
Tire Mounting
Danger: Only specially trained persons should mount tires. Improper mounting can cause tire explosion and serious injury.
Follow these mounting precautions:
Wear approved eye protection.
Clean and lubricate beads and rim.
Centralize rim band and tube to prevent pinching if tube-type rim.
*Note directional arrows on sidewall where applicable.
Lock assembly on mounting machine or place in safety cage before inflating to seat beads.
Set air hose relief valve at 40 psi.
Use extension gauge and hose with clip-on air chuck. Stand back with no part of your body within the perimeter of the assembled tire and rim.
Inflate with core in valve stem.
Never inflate above 40 psi to seat beads.*
Spin wheel to check bead seating and alignment.
*If the beads do not seat by 40 psi, deflate and repeat above procedures. Never use a volatile substance or rubber "donut" to aid bead seating. If the tire is a tube-type, deflate and reinflate after seating to prevent tube wrinkles.
For 15-inch motorcycle replacement tires, never mount on a 15-inch diameter passenger car tire rim. Mount only on a 15 M/C motorcycle rim. These passenger car and motorcycle rims actually differ in diameter.
Never mount passenger car tires on motorcycle rims.
D402 PT bead lock tires may only be mounted on matching Harley-Davidson FXRP, FLHTP or FLHP rims. Consult your owner's manual and see special tread label mounting instructions.
http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/infocenter_tiretips.asp?id=27
