Lakotaman and Snowbum,
i have been reading both your posts on sct and skunks for almost 2 yrs. welcome to the usca. don't give up on us just yet.it is a good club. it has really turned itself around in the past few years. it is going thru some growing pains right now but it will be alright. from what i have read both of you have a lot of knowledge that would be helpful here. hang with us.
Al "fly" Butterfield
Thanks Fly. I will do that.
Ron
Bum and all
I think you have this whole thing pretty much figured out. Like I said in the other thread, discrimination in any form should be eliminated in this and any non profit organization. We are just too small a group of people to selectively eliminate anyone interested in our club. If this petition was indeed about sidecar manufacturers and not related to Jay personally then we should be hearing from Larry Allen,the author. I too contacted some folks whose names appeared there and they thought the petition was about another subject entirely.
Ron,
Welcome to the group. I am also in the Industry and am a member in good standing of the Sidecar Industry Council and AMA. My involvement with these organizations has been, active, supportive, informational, satisfying and above all apolitical. Not seeking any "Strange bedfellows" I try to limit my posting to things I am experienced with or at least familiar with, leaning toward technical or resource information and eschewing any political agenda.
So far I've made many new aquaintences here and shared many fruitful discussions on this site, having I hope helped several folks out of what may have seemed like an unsolvable delimma at the time. All this by avoiding political flak.
Like I say, "I'm no Engineer, but I've been on a lot of freight trains."
Stick around Ron, it only gets better.
Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecar
nwsidecar@aol.com
John,
After reading your post I am compelled to set a couple of things straight. I know that you want folks to get the truth and I believe you may have misspoken about a couple of things.
JK-"I ran for the office of president, in direct opposition to the board and the way things were done,look in the back issues of the sidecarist for my election statement. I hosted two USCA Nationals and had delt [sic] with the board and did not like what I saw."
At Lexington II you complained that the Board didn't recognize your work and that there had not been any elections for a long time but you didn't even take the time to go to the Board meeting and depended on me to tell you about what had happened. The promise of elections was made (and subsequently carried through) and you had nothing to do with it. In fact you didn't even run in the first election. You also lost money for the USCA on that rally despite a claimed record attendance. And don't forget that you did get 60% of the proceeds from Lexington I as was the deal with the USCA at the time. That was changed after the struggle we had with Colby to get the money that he owed the club after the LaCrosse rally.
JK- "Present history is all that I have time to explain, but upto [sic] now the USCA was losing members and always short on funds. During my term as president we have increased membership by 25% and have a bank balance of over $10,000.00 from I think $4.00 in the treasurey according to James Cain right before I took office."
ACTUALLY JOHN, the club was down to less than $4 but it was a YEAR BEFORE you took office. All the things that were done to put this club back on a sound financial footing were in place BEFORE you took office. They were: the elimination of a paid editor for The Sidecarist, the moderate dues increase and the elimination of the Senior dues discount.
The single item that has made the biggest difference for the membership and the attraction of new members was the HUGE improvement in The Sidecarist after Steve Woodward took over from Bob Anderson. You supported the idea of keeping Bob Anderson and the old Sidecarist. You had NOTHING to do with recruiting Steve Woodward and currently things are so bad that Colby doesn't even speak to Steve anymore.
The increase in financial stablity and membership are the work of others on the Board and you really might want to rethink taking credit for them. Oh, you did have one big ipact on our financial health... When the Board voted to stop paying Al Roach $200 a month to do the job that he had been APPOINTED to many years ago, you refused to recognize the vote and have kept Roach on the payroll since then. The fact is, there are folks who will do the job for free and we are in violation of federal tax laws by not EVER giving Raoch a 1099 for the $2,400 we pay him annually. An amount that he accepted even when we were down to that <$4 in the bank. And yes, I didn't insist on a 1099 either so I'm guiilty as well but I'm not claiming to be the savior of the USCA. Since Al Roach's recent election it seems that whenever his vote has been expercised, you have done it by proxy. Proxy voting is a practice that is specifically outlawed by the State of Illinois and if you follow the Consitution as closely as you claim to you'd stop this illegal practice. It makes things look as though you just bought a vote on the Board.
JK-"Some folks are not happy with changing a program even if it does not work, and with change comes contivsery [sic], but from the general members point of view the USCA is more attractive than it was two years ago."
At least half true, change come at a price and the club is better off than it was two years ago but you can't point to a single thing that YOU DID to make it that way. All the positive things that have happened for the USCA either happened BEFORE you took office or in spite of you. If you had been less successful in clogging the works up we would be much further ahead today. You adminstration has been a huge quagmire that has effectively brought th
Al: Thanks for the info albeit, from your perspective.
Many/most of the items/conflicts/agendas, hidden or otherwise/dysfunctions and the like are in line which I as an "outsider" suspected upon the basis of my limited observations, and was quite frustrated with. A significant part of these frustrations emanated from observing fringes of the conflicts and (mis?)managements, and not seeing any resolution or attempted resolutions in sight or sought. Rather it appeared that, in some significant cases, personal egos/values/conflicts were generally/invariably put ahead of club needs and goals resulting in a conflicted board, where those who attempted to put club interests first were not heard.
Apparently I be not the only one, given your report of Dave and Robert's frustrations and actions. (As you may recall, it was yours truly who suggested that you try to "con" a certain retired banker and current school bus driver into running for Treasurer. We won't ask which job he enjoyed most ;-). Sorry, Robert.
At any rate I think open communication/airing laundry, etc. is long over due as a result of what, I think was a posture of misguided secrecy by the board. Snowbum is to be applauded for publicly raising issues so that productive public discussions can occur which will (hopefully) lead to the resolutions of recent difficulties.
Perhaps there is hope, after all.
Gust, who promised himself, yesterday, to write no more on this topic. ;-(
PS. Several people report of new member - as I recall the problem was not one of recruiting new members, but rather involved retaining old members, beyond 3 years. Any progress here?
As one of the founders of the USCA I am amazed at the recent problems related to Jay. The USCA had its greatest growth period ever under the solid leadership of Doug Bingham, a man who is a sidecar manufacturer and a sidecar importer besides being a sidecar enthusiast. Doug took the USCA from a struggling 350 membership local club and made it into a national organization with funding and the strength to grow its own aisecar training program under the auspices of Hal kendall and Ed Johnson and a University in Illinois. Doug has given far more to sidecarists than sidecarists have given to him.
Jay is like Doug in that he does and never has asked what can I get from these sidecarists but on the other hand what can I give to them. For these selfless actions he is being drummed out of the USCA on the basis of a few whose motives must be seriously questioned, and by a VP whose actions and judgement have in the past been seriously questioned by others,
I, for one, would like to know, chapter and verse, of exactly where and how Jay has used the USCA to his profit. Ans I do not want to hear any bullshit like - well - he coulda - or - well - he mighta crap. I want specifics of exactly where his actions and interests have been in direct conflict with the USCA interests.
As I hear it, he helps sidecarists in need, he promotes sidecar training, he offers sidecar training manuals, he offers advice to sidecarists regardless of whether they belong to the USCA or not, and he has been an active promoter of the USCA interests in many ways. Now, what the sam hill is wrong with that?
Hal Kendall, Co founder of the USCA, but now, somewhat not too proud of his baby who does not appear to have reached maturity.
Just learned - I just woke up - the voting stinks.
Proxy votes do not count.
President votes to break a tie only.
Scratch the proxy vote, there was no tie vote.
Vote was therefore illegal.
Maybe there is some obscure note somewhere but this sure was NOT in the constitution and bylaws as written. I know there has been talk of rewriting them for some years but was it ever done?
Perhaps someone can prove to my satisfaction that the vote was legal!
Hal Kendall, Founder USCA
At the December Board meeting a motion was brought to the floor by Colby Cousineau that the Board ask Jay Geise to resign. The motion was seconded By Chuck Tretyak. Much discussion followed and then President John Kennedy called for a vote. The vote result was as follows;
President John Kennedy voted in favor (Pres. Kennedy voted Secretary Al Roache’s proxy)
Vice Pres. Colby Cousineau voted in favor
Treasurer Robert Montague voted in favor
North East regional Director Chuck Tretyak voted against
Central Regional Director Joyce Canfield voted against
Western Regional Director Jay Geise voted against
Gentlemen,
You-all have ask many good questions, along with posting some good thoughts. You must understand that it is hard to seperate the facts from the unnessary information, however I will try.
The first, and most important point, is that the USCA welcomes manufactures, sidecardealers, installers, riggers ect. everyone is welcome , even to those that only have an intrest in sidecars.
We are all here to meet like minded folks that enjoy the world of sidecarring. (keep this statement in mind) Now let us move to the point that started this thread. If the USCA welcomes manufactures what was the point of the Larry Allen petition. If we read Joyces post where she said the people she talked to thought it was another matter, which was?
At the USCA Nationals in June 04 at Bean Blossom after the general meeting Jay jumped ontop of a picnic table and accused Colby of selling a door-prize that Jay had donated, he yelled many not so nice things.
Colby confornted Jay and Jay had to get back on the pinic table and apologize it was quite a bad scene, perhaps this bad taste caused some to sign the petition,
Back to the manufactures question, let us visit with Texas Sidecar company
in 2003 Bob Darden (owner of Texas Sidecar Co.) donated a sidecar to the National rally. Have you saw his adds on sidecar.com or in the sidecarist?
Bob tried to buy add space on sidecar.com and the then board would not sell him the same add Jay had on this site. I was at that board meeting as president-elect as a guest, he presented the board with a $500.00 check
for 1year banner add on sidecar.com the board turned him down. When I took office I found that Jay was getting his add without paying for it, and to date cannot find where he has ever paid for it and question if he is current on his half-page add in the sidecarrist. Bob who is a personal friend of mine, gave me his full opion at Carlsbad NM rally last year about how we should treat all the manufactures and dealers the same, and that as long as Jay was getting freebees and was on the board he would not be involved with the USCA.
Let us visit about another major manufacturer, as a personal favor in 2001 at the national rally that I hosted in Lexington Ky a major manufacturer came and set up at the rally for a day. I have known this gentleman for many years, when I became president I went to see him about supporting the USCA. His answer to me in a friendly way was that until the USCA treated all manufacturers the same he would spend his $s and put his support elsewhere.
Let us visit yet another major manufacturer, in 2003 at the National rally in Va. Calif. sidecar had the rally come over to their plant and
tour it, they also gave us hamburgars and hot dogs they for lack of a better word rolled out the red-carpet for us. The USCA did not give them free adds, no nice write-up in the sidecarist, not even and official thank you from the BOD. Nothing. You do not see their adds in the sidecarist either.
Now what we have here, is manufacturers that are upset with the USCA or perhaps I should use the term displeased, because one manufacturer is getting special treatment from the USCA. The manufacturers have their own org. called the Sidecar Industry Council. If the USCA is to treat all the manufacturers the same we can not offer them all a seat on the board. Probably giving Jay these freebees because he is on the board has cost the USCA support from the other manufacturers.
Jay is a good self-promoter, and being self-employed myself I can appericate that, note that in most of his post here, on SCT ect. he is promoting the products of Dauntless Motors. Also note that you can not find out about the 2005 USCA National on the USCA web-page, you must go to the Dauntless motors web site to get information. (The board has instructed Jay to put the information on this site sometime ago)
The USCA does welcome manufacturers, and I have put before the board the problem of treating all of them the same, to give each one an oppertunity to be a general member, or to advertize
As we all know, there are always two sides to any debate. John stated that Jay did apologize to the folks at the rally. This is a fact. Also a Blue Ribbon Committee was established to write letters to both participants of the argument. Letters were prepared and send to John for his signature. While the rest of the Board never saw what these letters said, they were never sent. Why?
I suggest that before you accuse someone of not paying for their advertising that you check with folks who should know. Have you asked the advertising manager or the Treasurer for this information? I would like some confirmation because I am sure there are folks who know.
I have been trying to stay out of this debate. I think it is important to point out that John Kennedy knows that I have never ever been given a bill for advertizing on sidecar.com despite asking for it many, many times both in the boards chat room and at Bean Blossum. One of the reasons as far as I know a rate had not been set. The figure of $500 a year was sugested by me only as the former president Jim Cain canceled a west coast event that he anounced at the National in Lexington saying that the club could not afford the $500 seed money. This is where the idea of $500 came from. But the $500 was never confirmed and was only a sugestion I made. I doubt at $500 a year we would be able to get many other compnies to buy space. I do belive long after my add was removed that a lesser amount was aproved along with a rotating forum so more advertizing could be sold but nothing was ever done with this. As a buisness I need a paper trail which is why I have asked repeatedly for a bill. But at what rate? Orignialy the add was put up for free with the idea that it would help atract others to advertize. It was not my idea to run it for free nor did I ever ask for it for free but it was offered for free and was simply a copy of my buisness card. In fact I have arugued to try to pay for advertizing on sidecar.com and John Kennedy knows this. But to pay I need to be presented with a bill which has never happened.
As to my add in the sidecarist. It is paid but for a paper trail I ended up printing out a simple email with a request to be paid. This would not be my first choice of a way to do things but we are a volunteer oginization and as such we should be gratefull that any one is keeping records at all.
As to my problems with other board members. First I feel that the club was cheated on the accounting of the national in 2003 which is why the board never aproved the accounting. The host of the rally (now VP) kept 60% of the money some thing that I will not be doing on the 2005 rally but in all fairness this has been the practice of the USCA for quite a while. I have tried to change this but could not get the votes to do so. He asked for money from sponcers which he recieved including money from my company and kept 60% of this for him self. He rented the club a golf cart that most likley was not needed and it turns out he brings to events any way. He rented the club a tent that I have been told was purchased for the event and was worth about $200. If you factor in the 60% he took it works out to costing the club $210 for this tent. He at first decieded to treat the $500 seed money as income rather then a loan and as such kept $300 of it. The board had a difficult time getting this back. He even went as far as charging the club milage to host the event. After asking for months for an accounting of the rally it was finaly presented. The board and my self found it odd that every figure was an even number but this is the best we were offered which is another reason it was never aproved. I have been involved with hosting sidecar rallies for a number of years (7 years for the un rally in Yakima WA) and also helped host 2 national Moto Guzzi rallies. It never would have even occured to me to keep money. In fact I spend money out of my own pocket to host the Yakima event.
My problem with the president is that the board held debate for months about stoping paying Al Roach to be registrar a job that the consitution does not out line. John refused to join in the debate and has at times simply gone for months not answering emails. The board voted by a majority to stop paying Al Roach. Behind the boards back John contacted Al Rocah and told him not to worry about it that he would make sure that Al Kept getting paid. When John finaly did deciede to join the debate one of his first arguments was that we could not hold a vote as he had the floor having made another motion. I have asked John over 30 times both in the on line forum and to his face just what he had the floor on. The only answer I have ever gotten was that it was belittling to answer
Thank you Jay for your reply and help in getting this matter strait.
Ron Campbell
Titan Engineering Works
Grand Junction Co
As chairman of the Advertising committee, I contacted Tony about this ob Dec 9th. Did he follow through? I don't know but here are copies of the emails.
From: Joyce Canfield
Date: Thu Dec 9, 2004 10:25 am
Subject: Web Policy and more
Hi Tony,
I am not sure you are receiving the yahoo group mail so I'm sending this directly and copying the group. The policy was approved Monday night so we can begin to sell the web site ads. Because Jay at Dauntless had an ad on the web page when it was set up we need to bill him for his previous ad. The information I had from another board member was that it was on there for 10 months. I am not going to dispute that so the way I figure it he owes 125.00. He has requested a written bill for income tax purposes. Do you actually mail paper bills? Is there anything I can do to help get this started?
Joyce
To which Tony replied:
Anthony George wrote:
In the past I have sent him a snail mail letter so he has a hard copy bill. Do you know if he wants to continue?
Have been having email problems. turned out to by spyware attacks. Have it fixed now
Yup, while perceptions may vary about what was/was not communicated, or the intent thereof, it remains that paper trails are essential to any business and are invariably provided, as a matter of course, by all well managed organizations. Facts such as paper trails, vote irregularities (as Hal has pointed out) seem less subject to misinterpretation than who said what.
Gust, who like many others was a "sole proprietor" for many years.
If I ever recieved a hard copy bill then it has been paid. If it has not been paid it would be due to not ever recieving a bill. We have a lot of bills coming into the buisness. I do not pay the bills my self I have a staff for this.
As another note, The web site was changed and my add pulled. I have never been asked if I would like to renew my add.
Jay Giese
Dauntless Motors Corporation
