You all may want to review this tread. Personally I never endoresed the use of a car tire at all.
Sometimes what we are talking about is not what the subject is at all!
Originally written by hackellis on 7/10/2006 10:44 PM<BR><BR> You all may want to review this tread. Personally I never endoresed the use of a car tire at all.
Sometimes what we are talking about is not what the subject is at all!
You sir, are a troll.
This is like a bad copy of Monty Python, he's got an argument room, and you are his entertainment.
Guy's and gals, don't feed the trolls. 4 pages, sheesh.
This is not about you - it was about the use of car tires for motorcycles with sidecars. Consequently, one must look at the pros and cons of what is required of a tire by a motorcycle with a sidecar and then deceide whether a tire designed for a solo motorcycle or a tire designed for a car has the more superior qualities, assuming that the tire is in fact safe to be fitted into service. And that is what this column has been all about.
As it turns out, in every facet, except for a few minor ones, the auto tire wins hands down over the MC tire simply because it is designed for a two-track vehicle which a M/C with a S/C most surely is. It just happens to "look" like a MC when viewed solely from the left side but then all resemblance ceases.
Like a car it no longer leans over into a corner so one does not need the solid sidewall nor the wraparound tread nor the Vee or round tread profile. Rather, like the car tire, one needs a softer flexible sidewall with a flat profile and a slightly rounded profile. Yes, they still make some MC tires like that if you look hard enough in the mail order but not usually in "MODERN" MC stores.
On the negative side, the car tire is designed for a wider rim than is the MC rim for the same tire width. That does affect the tire stability and tire pattern profile.
Besides, many MC dealers think their MC tires have gold or silver wrappings judging by their prices - often from $120 to $180 or more, plus shipping. Whereas you can often find a good auto tire on sale from a national tire outlet from $30 to $50. I used to find the blems which were WWs with a slight cosmetic defect but 100 percent warranty for even 50% off the discount price. There are some good bargains.
Again, whereas an expensive MC tire might last from 7000 to 12000 miles, a cheaper steel belt auto tire might last from 15000 to 30000 miles or more. You do the math.
Again, for many, in most sizes, there is no problem. Only in the case of a few is there a problem. None in the 16, or 17 or 18 inch. And none in the 15 inch for those who use the 125SR15 or the 135SR15 with care. Likewise, none for those who have laced their rims with the 15" auto rim in the bigger 165SR15 or who have gone to Dauntless for the cast 15 inch which has been profiled to the 15 inch auto rim. Believe Liberty has done the same. Other sidecar manufacturers have done this also both here and in Europe - a growing trend.
And for those who want to install a 165SR15 into a 15 inch MC rim, as Hackellis has said, it is all about personal risk taking. He assumed this risk and got away with it. Others also assumed the risk and blew up their tires and got injured as well. That is their choice.
So that is why the serious sidecarist will turn to the auto tire.
I am going to put the Metzeler 880 on a 02 Suzuki Intruder which has a 15 inch rim and a 180/70-15 Bridgestone on it currently with about 11000 miles on it. Wanted to go to a heavy duty type tire. Which is why when I saw forum question about putting a car type tire on instead, I looked into it. Egor
So that is why the serious sidecarist will turn to the auto tire.
I assume this is a slip, Hal 🙂
Just to clarify, and please correct me if i am in error, but i think you meant "...will turn to the auto tire, on correct rim replacements designed to fit a hub/axle design of a motorcycle/sidecar rig, but mounting an automotive tire by design."
yes?
Correct - it gets somewhat convoluted with some sizes not needing any modification - such as the 16", 17", or 18"
No problem for the Harley-Davidsons.
and you can even get by with it on the small 125SR15 and the 135SR15.
No problem for these - I have done this and so has Doug Bingham. Slios on fairly easily with modest pressure. About 40 to 50 psi.
But the problem is still with the big 165SR15s that is where you really need the auto rim design as Dauntless is providing for the GL1800s.
When i embarked on my project over three years ago, the pool of knowlege, and the flow of information that came from it wasn't quite so plentiful, regarding these tire sizings.
At that time, the common general advice was, a motorcycle tire bead, and an automotive tire bead were considered incompatable to each other, in cross-mounting an auto tire to a motorcycle rim, whether 15, 16, 17 or 18" sizes. At that time, through my own research, i also knew of at least one Ducati 999R HPS rig using a UK - Opel sourced 185/55R17 tire. There is also someone on the HPSidecar.com site that used this or a very similar automotive tire on his CBRXX HPS rig, and it kept deflating on him, in the garage, at rest. He had to send his stock rim out to a specialist in rim mods, to have it widened and the bead reprofiled to closer match the automotive bead of the tire, before the deflating behavior ceased.
I elected to go all automotive conversion wheel assemblies instead - my life was worth a lot more than the gamble of money saved using a technically incompatable auto tire on my motorcycle rims, whether they would have been 15, 16, 17, or 18" rim sizes.
I've installed a 195/60 R16 on the rear of my 05' GL1800 with Hannigan GTL. I've got 2500 miles on it with no problems.
I have not thought about a car tire on the front, but with the success of the rear I'd consider it, as I rarely take the rig apart for anything other than MAJOR service.
I've read several posts that refer to catostrophic failures.........but have not seen one yet from the person who experienced one. IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED FAILURE with a car tire on a MC then send in your information.
If you follow the VTX and VALK riders AKA: Darksiders, they have all run them on 2 wheels with great success for several years.
I'm happy with the performance I get with the Car tire vs. MC tire.
It is smoother ride, offers more traction, and better brake response. I think anyone that wants to try adding a car tire should do their research and keep in mind it is not easy. You will have to pull the rim, have the car tire installed (which is harder to find a dealer willing to install a car tire on a mc wheel than you think), once installed they won't be able to balance it, you will need to do it yourself or have a dealer, who will look at you like you are retarded balance it, and re install it.
Not hard to do, but more complicated than I think it should be. But as referenced here......many dealers will not even deal with you. I used "Just Tires" to install the tire.
Dundertaker
QUOTE:
I've read several posts that refer to catostrophic failures.........but have not seen one yet from the person who experienced one. IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED FAILURE with a car tire on a MC then send in your information
Dundertaker
=======================
PLEASE: Read these posts closer. You claim you have installed a 195/60 R16 on your GL1800 which I assume was on a 16 inch MC wheel. If so - so what?????
ALL the problems have referred STRICTLY with the 15 inch rim size only. That is because the 15 inch AUTO tire is about 1/8 inch SMALLER in ID the 15 inch MC tire and will not physically fit onto the 15 inch MC rim.
This is NOT the case with the 16 inch size, or the 17 inch size, ot even the 18 inch size. I do not know how many times we need to repeat this before you guys get the message that the 15 inch tires are an entirely DIFFERENT situation from all other sizes.
If you want confirmation, just get a copy of the Sidecarist DVD which contains photos of the 15 inch Firestone 165 that exploded during firment by a Firestone Dealer. They have also been posted on this list. OK?
It has been determined the following information regarding the use of car tires on motorcycles:
1. There are documented success stories in the use of car tires on motorcycles, all sizes.
2. The tire manufactures do not support the use of car tires on motorcycles for any size. i.e.. car tire for a car and a motorcycle tire for a motorcycle.
3. The tire and rim association does not support the use of car tires on motorcycles for any size. i.e.. car tire for a car and a motorcycle tire for a motorcycle.
4. No reputable business would install a car tire on a motorcycle because of liability concerns and the lack of Product liability insurance for a willful act.
5. This site recommends the use of car tires for all sizes except for 15" motorcycle rims.
6. There are documented disasters from installation to catastrophic failures for all sizes of car tires used on motorcycle rims.
7. There is more risk with the 15" motorcycle rim then other sizes, however the risk is great for all sizes.
8. Motorcycle manufactures, across the board do not recommend the use of car tires.
Bottom line, there is a greater risk in using a car tire on a motorcycle rim. My personal recommendation after exhaustive world wide research would be to refrain from the use of a car tire on a motorcycle. Currently there is litigation regarding the catastrophic failure of a car tire on a 16" rim.
Originally written by hackellis on 7/22/2006 11:52 AM
Currently there is litigation regarding the catastrophic failure of a car tire on a 16" rim.
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This is extremely interesting - can you elaborate on ANY details of the litigation or of the catastrophic failure of a car tire on a 16" rim (which I suppose is a MC rim)? This would be the very FIRST ever that I have heard of ANY 16 inch tire exploding - all of the other instances have been of the larger sizes of 15 inche tires, from 145SR15 thru 165SR16. The 16 inch auto rim and the 16 inch MC rim rim are IDENTICAL in size - so that should not have ben a problem. Installation proceedure?
If this can be confirmed, it would throw an entirely different light on this topic. Till now the emphasis has been limited to banning the practice on 15 inch sizes only. And this because of the physical incompatibility of the tire and rim sizes. Your post could have serious potential implications if proven.
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Quote: 6. There are documented disasters from installation to catastrophic failures for all sizes of car tires used on motorcycle rims. Unquote. Hackellis.
I have seen documented disasters ONLY for the 145SR15 thru 165SR15 sizes. None other. Even the 145SR15 and the 155SR15 were reported orally by USCA members at a USCA rally. And written up in the Sidecarist later. I do have pictorial evidence only of the 165SR15 exploding. Also written up in the Sidecarist. And presented in these posts.
Please provide where this documented evidence is of catastrophic failures of ALL sizes of car tires used on motorcycle rimes comes from. I have never seen any reference to such a claim.
Hackellis:
Some of your statements are somewhat provocative. Example: Currently there is litigation regarding the catastrophic failure of a car tire on a 16" rim.
What is it - EXACTLY - Was it faulty installation? Defective tire? The rim sizes are identical. What happened? Could have implications IF this can be confirmed and precise details known. Or is it just a rumor? We have plenty of those.
Next
6. There are documented disasters from installation to catastrophic failures for all sizes of car tires used on motorcycle rims.
What documented disasters? The ONLY ones I know of that have been reported are: this was brought up at a USCA meeting in the 1990s at a Tec session on topic where several reported failures on installation of 15SR145, 15SR155, and 15SR165. This was later published in the Sidecarist. I have written of the explosions of the 15SR165 tires with photos in the Sidecarist and shown those photos to this list.
To my knowledge, there have been no explosions during fitment of the 15SR125 or the 15SR135, not any explosions during fitment of any 16 inch tires or any 17 inch tires or even any 18 inch tires.
Please advise what are or where are your documented sources? None to my knowledge. If you have some please share them with us.
Next;
4. No reputable business would install a car tire on a motorcycle
However, it appears that there are several tire installers who would in fact perform such a service - why - I have no idea. Maybe to help a guy out, maybe because they do not know better. An education problem better to be taken up with the tire installers.
8. Motorcycle manufacturers, across the board, with a couple of notable exceptions, do not recommend the fitment of a sidecar onto ANY solo motorcycle. So what are we to do with this? Quit buying solo bikes for our rigs?
Hal,
A few questions.
All I said was that there was pending litigation regarding the catastrophic failure of a car tire used on a 16" rim. I did not say that it blew up on installation or exploded on the motorcycle? There are many pending issues for car tires used on cars, correct? Some have resulted in lawsuits that have cost the tire manufactures millions of dollars. Now you say there are no failures ever regarding car tires used on motorcycles besides the noted failures on 15" rims. Do you want to reconsider the question before I answer? You may want to re-read what I said.
EXACTLY - describe what was the precise nature of the pending legislation. Unless it is pertinant to topic why bring in red herrings? Your motives are extremely suspect when you throw out extremely wild statements with nothing to back them up.
Again, you seem to take great delight in misquoteing myself. I did NOT say there were no failures ever - but none that I was aware of in tires of particular sizes. It is YOU that claim to have superior knowledge of tire failures in ALL sizes - however - whever you are challanged to produce that knowledge you run and hide.
Please produce some positive discourse on topic.
We suspect you have some hidden agenda in wanting to stir up controversy when you claim to have information yet fail to disclose.
Originally written by hackellis on 7/22/2006 1:46 PM
Hal,
A few questions.
All I said was that there was pending litigation regarding the catastrophic failure of a car tire used on a 16" rim. I did not say that it blew up on installation or exploded on the motorcycle? There are many pending issues for car tires used on cars, correct? Some have resulted in lawsuits that have cost the tire manufactures millions of dollars. Now you say there are no failures ever regarding car tires used on motorcycles besides the noted failures on 15" rims. Do you want to reconsider the question before I answer? You may want to re-read what I said.
Hal,
There is no intent to miss quote.
I don't seem to understand why my current statement earlier today upset you so. I kept the statement generic in nature and indicated what were facts and what was my opinion. I do accept your criticism regarding the documented issues with the use of car tires on motorcycles.
I think the exchange is somewhat positive in the fact that you agreed to 7 out of the 8 facts and I will furnish documentation of the fact that you want more information on.
