What ever happened to sidecar training ?

Fly,

Are they not certifying MSF instructors any more?

Who owns the sidecar training material they had?

California no longer uses MSF. The CHP now contracts with Total Control Inc. for their mandatory training and also have multiple 3 wheel courses, something MSF rarely had.

Evergreen still has the curriculum, it was largely written by Dave Hough and amended by Dave Wendell.  Wendell is the Chief Instructor Trainer for that program and they are still offering the training.  The demand has really tapered off.  As he said in the article, to be sanctioned by Evergreen, all three wheel courses MUST have a least one sidecar training rig.  Apparently, some programs have lost their accreditation for not offering sidecar training and just training reverse trikes.

BTW, none of this has anything to do with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.  They are not Evergreen certified [If I understand things correctly]  IF MSF is teaching three wheeled courses they are not using the Evergreen material.

The rare 3 wheel courses taught by MSF are trikes only. No sidecars, their reply is to go to evergreen (which is far from a local solution). Michigan does not do 3 wheel and I don't think they have plans to. Michigan law does not differentiate between a 2 or 3 wheel motorcycle, so there is little desire for the course even among those who want to ride a trike.

We've had exactly 1 person contact us ever (Utah Rider Ed, we do about 75% of the classes in the state) about sidecars because in his words, "I'm worried I'm gonna kill myself on this thing."

We never heard from him again which is bloody ominous.  We don't have an official 3W program or certification but were willing to run a modified BRC2 skills practice curriculum (Bigger gates mostly, extra reflection around direction of turn, some exercises left out because Uturns on a rig are easy.) in much the same way we'd run any private lesson where we give more or less time and attention to a particular thing based upon student needs.

I couldn't/wouldn't sign a card to license someone on a sidecar but in Utah that's a non-thing.  Our funky tiered license is generally the item of greater concern.

One of the smaller outfits in the state runs the MSF's 3wbrc which is all Can-Ams and is basically just the BRC2 on the Can-Ams.   Don't worry, the nanny will keep you from doing wrong things... 😀

Gents, (and if I missed any Ladies around: please accept my sincerest apologies)

when I introduced myself to USCA in this thread, I sort of snubbed the notion of experience, in favor of analytically predicting the behavior of rigs and their riders. While I'm not going to revoke any of that, I definitely do want to acknowledge the value of experience in any type of biking.

But how do you acquire said experience? And survive in the process?!

In my particular case, coming from the world of single-track bikes, I ventured for a commercial training course for sidecar-bikers. Since I felt I was already a very(!) experienced biker (on two wheels), I was not willing to spend something equivalent to 500 bucks or so on a beginners course. So I signed up for an advanced sidecar-training. Only to find out, that they wouldn't accept me (and my money!!) for lack of experience -DUH!

What do you do when you sense, you're about to enter a new area of adventures and dangers(!) that you'll definitely need some guidance for?

Well, in my case, the answer was quite straightforward. I had led quite an adventurous life up to that moment, being very "physical", having competed in gymnastics, enjoyed paragliding, motorcycling, snowboarding - in short: all playful experiences of speed, risk and equilibrium games there were around.

So I decided to venture on my own. After all: how might the very first sidecar trainer have acquired his/her experience, for lack of any previous trainers around?

You get the idea: I'm not faint at heart. I have an education as an engineer, and I had some broad expectation of what might happen. I have an above-average trained sense of equilibrium, but I think, an average sense of equilibrium will do as well, with a little more caution.

So, one early February morning, when the snow (and salt on the roads!!) was gone, I felt adventurous enough to give its serious try. With only around 50 km in total of sidecar experience up to that moment. Where I live, there is a large plant down in the valley, with a large parking lot that's vacated during the weekends. That's where I has heading. On my way down, I went through a residential area with a speed limit of around 20 mph, and several long, straight roads. I started doing serpentines, while observing the speed limit. I jerked the handlebar ever harder, until the first lift-off of the chair happened. And that was nothing spectacular at that moment, because I was aiming for that to happen. All the while keeping my overall straight course and observing the speed limit. Since I was doing serpentines anyways, the counter-steering was already factored in, so everything was easily kept under control.

And that's the approach I'd recommend for everybody: select an open space for practice, aim for a point far away, then approach that point in serpentines. Don't increase your speed, but do gradually increase your pull on the handlebar of your rig, until the chair starts to lift off. Let that feeling sink in: how strong you need to pull the handlebar until lift-off of the chair.

Then gradually delay the counter-steering part of the serpentine, so you'll get to enjoy the feeling of riding a short (and increasingly longer) stretch of your ride on two wheels. Learn, how the rig reacts to braking, while riding on two wheels. Or to "opening up" the radius of curvature. This will be essential in real traffic situations! There is really nothing more serious than playing around!!!

Eventually you'll be able to ride an arbitrarily long stretch on two wheels, for as long as the parking lot allows. Eventually you'll find yourself doing this at the exit right turn of roundabouts, or any right turns that cross your way. Just do keep an open eye on the on-coming traffic, and any obstacles that may be around.

May the g-force be with you!

ChrisK, I congratulate you on finding sidecars and self-teaching how to drive them.  However there is more to sidecars than learning how to fly the chair for extended distances.  Once the chair is in the air, you basically are riding a two wheel machine with an outrageous weight hanging off the side.

In many respects it is easier to teach someone who has never ridden  a motorcycle to drive a sidecar rig than it is a person with years of two wheel experience.  The story is common of experienced motorcyclist wrecking their new sidecar rig trying to exit the dealer's parking lot. They don't know what they don't know. 

As you can atest, riding a motorcycle is you and the machine against the road. However on three wheels it is the machine and the road against you. Having a developed sense of equilibrium is great on two wheels, but on three, you hang on and drive. Shifting your weight from side to side doesn't have much affect on where the rig is going. Forget equilibrium, you drive the rig by throttle, brake and handlebar control.

There is no counter steering with sidecars. You point the front tire where you wish to go, unlike motorcycles.  Applying the countersteering method to a sidecar rig will quickly result in your ending up in the ditch if not dead.  One drives a sidecar rig the same way one drives a UTV or golf cart.

If you want to become a long distance sidecarist, forget the pulling of the handlebars to steer.  That will wear out your arm muscles after a couple of hours of riding. Use the LPR method instead. L = lock the outside arm in the direction you wish to turn.  To go right, lock the left arm, lock the right arm to go left. Now P= push with your upper body. There are more muscles in your upper body than in your arms. One can ride all day long using this method. R= relax the grip of inside hand to avoid the tendency to pull.  Do not use it for pulling unless you get into a declining radius curve that requires a tighter turn then planned. 

This are just a few recommendations I can offer from twelve years, 100,000 miles of sidecaring and taking two sidecar driving courses. Have also learned that no two sidecars handle the same. Whenever getting on a new to you rig, takes it easy until you learn how it reacts in different situations.  Some rigs take curves at high speed with no hint of lifting, while others will come up at half that speed. Some take a light touch to steer while others require a serious effort to change directions.

If these comments sound too harsh, I want you to live long enough to learn to properly pilot a rig. 

I admire your enthusiasm for a sport we sidecarists have come to love. Sincerely hope you grow to enjoy it and appreciate its finer features as you master the necessary skills.

Ride safe, ride far.

CCjon

once upon the time as student, there was no change to get taught by someone experienced... so this book was my teacher.... plus my guardian angel...

(some type error might have happened but the link goes to the translation of the BDMV manual for rig pushers)

to put here the link is a random generator:

Go up in the menue 6th button "Sidecar tech"

5th and 6th button are two manuals that are good.

The 6th is the one i tried to link....with too strange results.

We who came from many miles solo riding had the worst start into the 3 wheeler world.

BIG GRIN a long time back: 1st day 145km 3 times straight into the pasture............

Quote from CCjon on September 23, 2020, 8:32 pm

There is no counter steering with sidecars. You point the front tire where you wish to go, unlike motorcycles.  Applying the countersteering method to a sidecar rig will quickly result in your ending up in the ditch if not dead.  One drives a sidecar rig the same way one drives a UTV or golf cart.

CCjon, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Please accept, that English is not my mother's tongue, and that maybe I'm using certain terms wrongly. As far as "counter-steering" is concerned, that was obviously the case on my side.

What I meant to say is: when you're doing a right turn, and the chair becomes "light" or even starts to fly, you do not pull the left handlebar to control the situation. Rather, you should gently release some of the pull on the right handlebar. In a typical situation on a public road, with traffic coming onwards, there will rarely be room to open up the radius of the line you're riding on. That's when you decelerate, via brake and/or throttle, depending on how much is needed. I agree on that part.

What I definitely advise against ist the "LPR-method". This may be fine if you're on a relaxed ride on an interstate highway. If you are more inclined to ride closer to the physical limits, using the LPR-method will completely deprive you of very valuable feedback about how close you are to said limit. Because a locked arm doesn't give you the necessary level of feedback. I acknowledge reading about your 12 years of sidecar experience, including the 100.000 mile bit. Still, voluntarily foregoing valuable feedback is reckless at best. Recommending such effort-saving techniques is outright dangerous, because unsuspecting newcomers might actually act upon your advice.

ChrisK,  when riding the interstate highway or autobahn there is not a lot of pushing or pulling going on, it is when you are riding the secondary roads or mountain routes with the constant curves, even 180 degree switchbacks, that is when the LPR method will make a difference. Your arm muscles can quickly tire and you will not be able to hold a firm line on a long curving road. On short rides you will be fine, but when riding hundreds of miles or a thousand kilometers in a day, your arm muscles can fail you when you need them most. With LPR, while your upper body is pushing forward your buttocks are pushing down again the seat giving you solid leverage. Leverage you do not have when using only arm muscles.

I know many sidecarists who use the arm pulling method. They mostly are short distance riders because their arms tire out. Many have never heard of or learned LPR. Those who practice using LPR can ride long distances, day in and day out. Our friends down under in Australia also find the LPR method ideal for their long commutes between locations. 

If your rig comes up or flies easily there is a problem with the machine set up or you are taking curves too fast. Once the chair flies you have lost a large measure of control and maneuverability creating a dangerous emergency situation. It should not fly easily. Additional ballast or weight might be needed in the sidecar, or slow down.

My current BMW/EZS rig is very planted and stable on all curves at posted and  above posted speed limits even with no passenger.  To fly the chair I have to work at it.  In the past I have had other rigs where the chair would fly before I reached the posted speed limit. Extra weight was added to keep it planted. The objective is not to fly the chair constantly but to have a stable manageable rig with all three wheels in contact with the road.  Only with all three wheels in contact with the pavement do you have maximum control of the machine.

Remember, while a sidecar rig may look like a motorcycle it is not. It handles and drives quite differently from a motorcycle. That is where so many experienced two wheel riders quickly get into trouble because they think the sidecar rig is a motorcycle. It is not difficult to learn to pilot a sidecar rig, it does require a different learned skill set from riding two wheels. 

I commend you for taking the time and making a serious effort to learn to pilot a sidecar safely. You will do fine and learn to appreciate the joy of this different way of traveling on three wheels.

Jan

ChrisK, thank you for this conversation. You prompted me to go out and ride for an hour so I could put my thoughts into the right words. 

When you are pushing and pulling with your arms to steer the sidecar rig, that forces you to tighten your grip on the handlebars in order to maintain control. In tightening your grip, you are losing the finesse to control throttle, clutch and brake necessary for safer sidecar driving.

We'll take it one directional change at a time. The most important turn requiring maximum control is the right turn (unless your sidecar is mounted on the left, then the left turn is more critical).  The throttle is an important element for right turns. On right turns, the throttle is used to slowly accelerate thru the turn as the forward momentum of the bike will try to pass the sidecar making the turn smoother. With a loose grip on the throttle, you can quickly increase or decrease your speed as needed for a smooth change of direction. By using the throttle for turning right, less pressure is used to push with the locked left arm.

When you tighten your grip to pull the right handlebar with the arm control suggested, you have lost the ability to quickly adjust the throttle/speed to control your turn.

If your rig is "flying" easily on right turns, add ballast until it doesn't as mentioned above for a properly set up rig.

On a left hand turn, using LPR, your right arm is locked with your palm is pushing against the handlebar. Yet your grip is still loose on the throttle for quick adjustments and better control. A steady speed on left turns is best as the sidecar will want to pass the bike which is what you want. Accelerating on a left turn is bad idea as that would counter act the momentum of the sidecar to pass the bike. Never apply the front brake on a left turn. That could unload the rear tire causing the center of gravity of the rig to quickly move outside the safety triangle resulting in a disastrous situation. Again, NEVER apply the front brake on a left turn. If you have to brake, use the rear only.

NOTE: All of the above only applies to rigs with sidecars mounted on the right side

I won't get into using the rear brake to help steer a sidecar as each rig is different. That would be a particular discussion for a particular rig. 

I encourage you to try the LPR method for yourself then decide if it works for you.  I did not invent LPR. It was taught to me by an older highly respected long distance sidecar rider many years ago. The more I use it the more I can appreciate how simple yet effective it is for all day riding and better control on short rides too.

Best regards, safe riding

Jan 

Jan,

thanks for your dedicated effort in trying to convince me of the values of LPR 😎

I have tried that method already, but found that I would be way too slow to react. Switzerland is a small country, with a significant share of mountains, secondary, tertiary and even quarteriary (?) roads. Lots of mountain passes which of course attract two and tree-wheeled bikers from all over Europe. See this, this or this for examples.

But I'm digressing already.

I had to think about how I could organize my answer, so readers besides you and me would be willing to follow along. There's a lot that we agree upon, so maybe we should tick that off first and only discuss the rest.

In the order from general to specific:

• Riding a bike with a sidecar requires physical effort. Agreed.
• Doing this for an extended period of time can make you tired. Agreed.
• Using LPR is a riding technique which avoids some of the effort, thus delaying fatigue. Agreed.
• Riding a bike with a sidecar is inherently dangerous, if not done properly. Agreed.
• Riding slowly is safer than riding fast. Agreed
• Riding on three wheels is typically safer (more stable) than riding on two wheels. Agreed.
• Different rigs (chassis dimensions, weight distribution) behave differently. Agreed.
• Keeping a safe distance from any the limits of physics is safer that approaching them. Agreed.

What's debatable, or maybe not?

Riding slowly is safer than riding fast. I agreed to that already. By implication, the safest way would be to not ride at all (speed = zero). Obviously, this would defeat the purpose of riding a sidecar entirely. So we are not talking about a black&white issue, but rather about a personal preference in the smooth transition from perfect safety to maximum risk. Is there a point in debating personal preferences?

What about keeping a "safe distance" from danger (i.e.: limits of physics)? In order to judge whether a distance is safe, you need to know where that limit is. The only way that I can think of of how to learn where the limit is, is deliberately approaching it and eventually touching it. Maybe even crossing it, with the necessary precautions in place, like lack of other traffic, plenty of room for maneuver, a well prepared mindset for what's about to happen at the "limit". This is, if I remember correctly, the approach also taken by typical safety course instructors.

If I was a sidecarist, I'd rather be travelling with a rider who every once in a while deliberately touches the limit (makes the chair fly), instead of travelling with one who avoids that limit at all cost until he one day crosses it by accident, for lack of knowledge where it was.

Take, for instance, the first snowfall in winter. We used to take our cars to empty parking lots for some skidding exercises. Now there are people who claim, skidding a car is dangerous. Maybe so. But it's less dangerous if you have developped reflexes on how to deal with it once it does happen outside of the parking lot.

You touched more aspects which also deserve an answer. But I'd say, for now we're close to exhausting the audience already. I'll come back at a later point to the rig-related stuff.

Enjoy the weekend. Over here in Switzerland, we're currently seeing the first spells of winter, with snowfall down to 800 meters above sea level. Quite unusual for this time of the year.

Regards,

Chris

Hi Chris, I hope this doesn't seem off topic but do you frequent this site- www.edelweiss-riders.ch. I have two friends in Switzerland, Daniel and Rolland, who ride with this group and it would be good if you are already aware of them or would get to know them. It seems the comradere of those of us who ride is the same everywhere. 

I agree with what you say about finding the limits of your rig. Better to know all along than to find out by accident. Good luck with your sidecar. And here's to many adventures.

since sidecar.com doesn't seem to have a "private message" facility:

Tom, thanks for this pointer. Actually many in this forum would probably consider this off-topic within this thread, but for me, this is/was very welcome nevertheless. Again, many thanks!

I checked out their website and regret to see significant hurdles for a match:

They accept membership only by personal invitation from an already-member. To get to know members, they advise you to come to their informal meetings, and casually join the meeting. Then they expect you to continuously contribute for one year minimum. Only after a minimum of one year they would accept (or decide on) a formal membership application.

Well, they may have their reasons for proceeding that way. But since their base location is around a two-hours ride from where I live, this seems impossible for me to do. And, after all, it's them who are going to miss someone significant 😉

Regards,

Chris