Quote from Hack__n on July 31, 2007, 6:24 pm

Did you flunk the test Mark?
If so, remember there is more than one test form used so just highlighting the ones you missed won't necessarily guarantee yuor passing the next one.

Dave Wendall and The Evergreen Safety Council were quite involved in preparing the three wheel endorsement test for the Washington State Department of Licensing.
I stayed out of that part of it. I was only interested in parity with the 2 wheel riders, a three wheel ONLY endorsement for those who needed it and a subsidy for sidecar training. We did get those three pluses.

Lonnie
Northwest Sidecar

Quote from Guest on July 31, 2007, 6:33 pm

I got all four of the trivia questions I listed, plus the one that
advises putting both passengers in the sidecar (I knew that the sidecar
should have the heavier load, but didn't think most are
designed for two people in the sidecar). When I complained at the DOL
I was told that the correct answer was in the study materials. It is not.
The only thing in the book related to loading passengers on a sidecar rig
says to put the heaviest person in the sidecar.

The rest of the questions are safety related, for the most part.

Quote from Guest on July 31, 2007, 9:23 pm

You might take another look at those "trivia" questions and se if there may be something they are trying to point out to you by including them on the test. It is a total waste of time if you don't learn anything from it....

VW

Quote from claude #3563 on July 31, 2007, 10:27 pm

• About 50% percent of these accidents happened
within five miles of home.
TAKE LONGER RIDES

• Two-thirds of all multiple vehicle accidents involve
drivers taking the motorcyclist right-of-way.
MAY BE DIFFERENT A just LITTLE WITH A SIDECAR. THIS COULD BE (PROBABLY IS) MUCH DIFFERENT WITH MANY THINGS WHEN TRYING TO RELATE THE HURT REPORT INFO TO A SIDECAR OR EVEN A TRIKE. In addition to that the Hurt report was begun in 1976 and finished in 1981 with info on 3600+ motorcycle crashes gathered from a common geographical area. The word 'all' in the statement above may be 'all' as related to this report taken over twenty years ago based on motorcycles in a given area...but who knows about now or with trikes or sidecars?. To say it is 'all' related to sidecars or even motorcycles produced today has to be a stretch with the bikes and an unknown at best with sidecars and trikes.
Hey, what trikes did we see back on '76 anyhow? VWs? Servicars?
And when did choppers, which were highly represented in the report according to info on the net, really begin to think that running with a front brake could possibly be a good idea?

• About 17% of the fatal motorcycle accidents occur at
alleys and driveways.
YOU HAVE 83% CHANCE OF AVOIDING AN ACCIDENT AT AN ALLEY OR DRIVEWAY?
Does the odds go up or down at other places? Hmmmm

• Only about 10% of motorcycle accidents take place on
multi-lane highways. These accidents are most likely
to occur near exit or entry lanes.
STAY ON THE INTERSTATE ONCE YOU SURVIVE THE ENTRY ONTO IT. VERY IMPORTANT!! I still prefer the 90% zone for most riding.

Quote from claude #3563 on July 31, 2007, 10:30 pm

Why is this section of sidecar.com reversed from the rest? In other words page 2 is first and so forth? Also when a post is made it sends you back to th efirst post and not the one you just did.Or Is it just me?

Quote from claude #3563 on July 31, 2007, 10:43 pm

Lonnie wrote:
>>>Dave Wendall and The Evergreen Safety Council were quite involved in preparing the three wheel endorsement test for the Washington State Department of Licensing.<<>>I stayed out of that part of it. I was only interested in parity with the 2 wheel riders, a three wheel ONLY endorsement for those who needed it and a subsidy for sidecar training. We did get those three pluses.<<

You may have looked at it from what you felt was good for a sidecarist to have a means to learn at a lesser cost due to the subsidy? Others may have looked at it from the other side as a way to generate more business due to the subsidy.
Pluses? That is an opinion!!

Quote from Guest on August 1, 2007, 6:52 am

Originally written by claude #3563 on 7/31/2007 11:30 PM

Why is this section of sidecar.com reversed from the rest? In other words page 2 is first and so forth? Also when a post is made it sends you back to th efirst post and not the one you just did.Or Is it just me?

This forum was set to sort posts by activity. I think I changed it but who knows where this reply will go in the list.

Quote from Hack__n on August 1, 2007, 12:31 pm

Claude wrote:
>>You may have looked at it from what you felt was good for a sidecarist to have a means to learn at a lesser cost due to the subsidy? Others may have looked at it from the other side as a way to generate more business due to the subsidy.
Pluses? That is an opinion!!<<

As I stated here in the past, When Ms. Margaret Haugen, the chair of the WA State Trasnportation Committee, approached me in regards to what changes I would like to see regarding sidecarists, I said:

1- I would like to see parity with the 2 wheel riders who's training is subsidized by the state endorsement fund we all pay into.

2- Unlicensed vehicles are furnished for 2 wheel riders to train on, whereas Sidecarists must furnish their own licensed and insured vehicle to use for training.

3- Many of my cients have physical restrictions that make it impossible for them to take the two wheel driving test so that should not be a limiting factor in motorcycle licensing. There should be a three wheel or three wheel only endorsement level.

I still feel that these 3 changes were needed. The ripoff wasn't.
The ensuing greed of the State Legislature and perhaps those others who benefit financially from the changes wasn't part of the deal.

I stand by my opinion, feel free to differ.

Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecars
(no longer in Washington for several reasons.)

Quote from Guest on August 1, 2007, 7:14 pm

I got the point of the data when I studied for the test the first time,
but didn't think i needed to know the actual numbers for the test.
I figured they were background information, not test material.
I can learn what is important without being able to pick out
the correct percentage on a multi choice test. Especially since it
was stuff I already knew without seeing the actual numbers.

I re-took the test this morning and passed it.

I still think a motorcycle endorsement should cover sidecars without
having to spend extra money and a whole lot of extra time to obtain
an extra check mark on the license. I wasted about 4 hours for just the
permit, and still have to go take the skills test.

Taking the class would not save any time because you still have to wait
in line at the DMV to process the paperwork.

I will probably take a class some day, but I would have done that without
the added government oversight.

Quote from claude #3563 on August 1, 2007, 10:17 pm

Originally written by Hack'n on 8/1/2007 12:31 PM

Claude wrote:
>>You may have looked at it from what you felt was good for a sidecarist to have a means to learn at a lesser cost due to the subsidy? Others may have looked at it from the other side as a way to generate more business due to the subsidy.
Pluses? That is an opinion!!<<

As I stated here in the past, When Ms. Margaret Haugen, the chair of the WA State Trasnportation Committee, approached me in regards to what changes I would like to see regarding sidecarists, I said:

1- I would like to see parity with the 2 wheel riders who's training is subsidized by the state endorsement fund we all pay into.

2- Unlicensed vehicles are furnished for 2 wheel riders to train on, whereas Sidecarists must furnish their own licensed and insured vehicle to use for training.

3- Many of my cients have physical restrictions that make it impossible for them to take the two wheel driving test so that should not be a limiting factor in motorcycle licensing. There should be a three wheel or three wheel only endorsement level.

I still feel that these 3 changes were needed. The ripoff wasn't.
The ensuing greed of the State Legislature and perhaps those others who benefit financially from the changes wasn't part of the deal.

I stand by my opinion, feel free to differ.

Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecars
(no longer in Washington for several reasons.)

In most sates if someone takes a test on a two wheeler they are legal to ridea three wheeler. If comeone is handicapped or whatever and takes a test on a three wheeler he or she will get a stamp saying three wheels only. THAT covers the issue #3 and has worked quite well for a long time.
I for on ehope it stays that way. I also am not against sidecar triaing at all but to get hooked into a deal like we have seen in washington state stinks.
lONNIE i sense that your statement that said :
>>The ripoff wasn't.
The ensuing greed of the State Legislature and perhaps those others who benefit financially from the changes wasn't part of the deal.<<
Maybe says even you have similar feelings.

Quote from Guest on August 2, 2007, 1:31 pm

It just gets worse.
I still think if you want to encourage people to get training, that is fine,
but forcing them into it is just a fascist way to accomplish it.
I am so sick of the government protecting people from themselves.
I'm now $25 and 4 wasted hours into it, and still have to take the riding test,
WHEREVER THE &%#$ THAT WILL BE...
I asked about the Bremerton testing site's address (Which shows the old
street name for Auto Center Blvd - an error) and this is what I got back.
(I got to the list which included Bremerton from the Trike/Sidecar info page)

Mr. Kanzler,

Unfortunately there is no 3 wheel testing site in Bremerton, just the two wheel. Due to the infrequent need for 3 wheel testing and examiner proficiency, we've had to limit the number of sites. Testing sites have been established in the Bellevue and Centralia areas. You can call either of those offices to set up a test at their facilities.

While I understand the inconvenience of traveling for a test, with only 93 test given in all of 2006, you can see how keeping the examiner's proficient at administering an accurate test is also important.

Steve Stewart
Department of Licensing
Motorcycle Program Manager
P.O. Box 9030
Olympia, WA 98507-9030
Office (360) 902-3664
Fax (360) 570-4914

Quote from Guest on August 2, 2007, 1:42 pm

Originally written by Hack'n on 8/1/2007 9:31 AM

The ensuing greed of the State Legislature and perhaps those others who benefit financially from the changes wasn't part of the deal.

I stand by my opinion, feel free to differ.

Lonnie, I thing we agree!

BTW, in Washington, motorcycles are not required to have insurance.
It might be required for the sidecar class, but that would be a
requirement beyond the legal minimum.

I rode to work on my new Ural this morning. I'm uninsured, but because
it is a pretty simple route and I rode extremely conservatively (I'm
still getting familiar with the rig), I figured it was an acceptable
risk level (for me, YMMV). My wife is going to get insurance while I'm here at work, so it was a 12 mile one way trip. Motorcycling is risky to
begin with, so I wouldn't even ride if I were truly trying to minimize
risk as completely as possible.

BTW, it was a fun ride. Need to adjust rear/car brakes & add air in tires
before I go home, but all went well.

Quote from Guest on August 3, 2007, 1:16 pm

Originally written by Mark 42 on 8/2/2007 10:31 AM
I'm now $25 and 4 wasted hours into it, and still have to take the riding test,
WHEREVER THE &%#$ THAT WILL BE...

Kirkland or Centralia.
They are wroking on a Kitsap county location, but it will
only be available during work hours, so I will have to use
a precious vacation day, or go to Kirkland from my work in
Tukwila (on an extended lunch & make up the time by staying late)

All this to protect me from hurting myself? The stress is more
likely to kill me with a heart attack!

Quote from Hack__n on August 3, 2007, 2:01 pm

Washington State's DOL has a penchant for taxing and feeing everything that rolls, floats or flies. Then adding levels of fees to this.
Nearly all of these funds go into the General Fund, or what is known widely as the slush fund. Little of this revenue is dedicated for the benefit of those who pay this money.
Custom licenses for instance. In Oregon these funds go toward litter control on the highways. Highway generated, highway spent.
In Washington these funds go toward protecting Non game species of animals.
Where is the connection there? Save the Possums?
With the new three wheel endorsement funds available there is still a dearth of opportunity for most in the state to get handy access to training or testing.
Taxation with little or no representation I think it is called.

Lonnie

Quote from Guest on August 3, 2007, 2:10 pm

Originally written by Hack'n on 8/3/2007 11:01 AM

Washington State's DOL has a penchant for taxing and feeing everything that rolls, floats or flies.
Then adding levels of fees to this...
Taxation with little or no representation I think it is called.
Lonnie

Well said.
Thanks Lonnie.

Quote from Guest on August 3, 2007, 5:40 pm

Originally written by Hack'n on 8/3/2007 2:01 PM

Washington State's DOL has a penchant for taxing and feeing everything that rolls, floats or flies. Then adding levels of fees to this.
Nearly all of these funds go into the General Fund, or what is known widely as the slush fund. Little of this revenue is dedicated for the benefit of those who pay this money.
Custom licenses for instance. In Oregon these funds go toward litter control on the highways. Highway generated, highway spent.
In Washington these funds go toward protecting Non game species of animals.
Where is the connection there? Save the Possums?
With the new three wheel endorsement funds available there is still a dearth of opportunity for most in the state to get handy access to training or testing.
Taxation with little or no representation I think it is called.

Lonnie

Thanks for the info.

Just so you know about the endorsement fees (you probably already do but just in case):
New endorsement
$5 application fee (goes into Motorcycle Safety Fund)
$10 endorsement (goes into Motorcycle Safety Fund)
$10 to replace the license (goes to the folks make license)

Permit
$15 (goes into Motorcycle Safety Fund)

Renewal
$25 (all goes into Motorcycle Safety Fund)

The Motorcycle Safety Fund is a protected (as much as can be) fund that is not for general use and the law must be changed for anyone other than the motorcycle program to get it.

The two year budget has approx 64% going directly to rider education subsidies. It cost approx $250/student to train them but the law sets the low cost option at $125. Fund pays the rest. We're on line to train almost 9,000 low cost students this coming year and another 8,000 - 9,000 non subsidized (student pays full cost).

The remaining part of the budget pays for license examiner training and review, quality assurance (2 staff Chief instructors and 3 contract Chiefs)for the state wide program (there are more that 40 classes per week around the state), printing drivers guides and educational material, buying student guides and other training materials, training new instructors, providing services at public events year round and the list goes on.

Washington is easily one of the finest programs in the country. NHTSA ranked it 9th 4 years ago. Since then we've made so many improvements, there is little doubt we are top 5 in quality and per capita training. Why is that? It's because riders like you guys demand it and work to make sure we have what we need to keep growing. Are we perfect? Nope, trying though. After all, I'm laying it all out for you now and if you want more, public advisory board meetings are every quarter. Next one is in Moses Lake at the Licensing office on Sep 7th.

No one in this program is scared to answer questions. Ask the hard ones we'll answer. But just because you don't always like the answer doesn't mean it isn't true. Give us a little respect cause riders always get it from us.

Quote from Guest on August 3, 2007, 5:58 pm

Plus $5 every time you fail / retake the (written) test.

Originally written by WashCI:
Give us a little respect cause riders always get it from us.

Not gonna touch that one.

But I have to ride on the freeway for over an hour on a rig with
a 60 MPH top speed, then ride & navigate through an unfamiliar city
to go take a test to see if I am qualified to ride my sidecar rig.

I liked it better when there was no program.

Quote from Guest on August 3, 2007, 9:04 pm

Originally written by claude #3563 on 8/1/2007 10:17 PM

Originally written by Hack'n on 8/1/2007 12:31 PM

Claude wrote:
>>You may have looked at it from what you felt was good for a sidecarist to have a means to learn at a lesser cost due to the subsidy? Others may have looked at it from the other side as a way to generate more business due to the subsidy.
Pluses? That is an opinion!!<<

As I stated here in the past, When Ms. Margaret Haugen, the chair of the WA State Trasnportation Committee, approached me in regards to what changes I would like to see regarding sidecarists, I said:

1- I would like to see parity with the 2 wheel riders who's training is subsidized by the state endorsement fund we all pay into.

2- Unlicensed vehicles are furnished for 2 wheel riders to train on, whereas Sidecarists must furnish their own licensed and insured vehicle to use for training.

3- Many of my cients have physical restrictions that make it impossible for them to take the two wheel driving test so that should not be a limiting factor in motorcycle licensing. There should be a three wheel or three wheel only endorsement level.

I still feel that these 3 changes were needed. The ripoff wasn't.
The ensuing greed of the State Legislature and perhaps those others who benefit financially from the changes wasn't part of the deal.

I stand by my opinion, feel free to differ.

Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecars
(no longer in Washington for several reasons.)

In most sates if someone takes a test on a two wheeler they are legal to ridea three wheeler. If comeone is handicapped or whatever and takes a test on a three wheeler he or she will get a stamp saying three wheels only. THAT covers the issue #3 and has worked quite well for a long time.
I for on ehope it stays that way. I also am not against sidecar triaing at all but to get hooked into a deal like we have seen in washington state stinks.
lONNIE i sense that your statement that said :
>>The ripoff wasn't.
The ensuing greed of the State Legislature and perhaps those others who benefit financially from the changes wasn't part of the deal.<<
Maybe says even you have similar feelings.

I find it interesting that he complains about government but wants his share of the government feed trough (taxes). I’ll take his third item first. Washington had a three wheel only licensing restriction before Lonnie got his changes in and the endorsement was free! So his first comment about getting subsidized training that he pays into was false, only the two-wheel license fees went into the fund to subsidize training. And since three-wheel endorsed drivers didn’t pay an endorsement fee (only their basic licensing fee) they contributed no money toward subsidized training. That is also why they must supply their own rig during the training, there are so few that it would be an even bigger drain on the motorcycle program to supply sidecar rigs for training. Sometimes its hell when you get what you wished for but now we all have to live with it. The three wheel folks had a good deal until someone thought they weren't getting their share. They wanted a training program. Now we have a three wheel training program that almost no one uses. The state tested only 93 riders last year and there are less than 200 drivers who had the old three wheel only restriction on their license. We were better off before when any motorcycle rider could ride a three wheeler or bike with a sidecar. The state has wasted a pile of money so a few could get a motorcycle safety patch to wear.

Quote from Hack__n on August 4, 2007, 1:22 am

WashCI's information is interesting but it seems mostly to pertain to 2 wheelers.
This is all moot to me at this time, no longer being in Washington, so I will bow out of this thread and let it die it's own death.
(Too many monday morning quarterbacks. It's a shame they weren't interested enough to put a word in a couple of years ago when this issue was timely and it might have made a difference.)

Good Luck Washingtonians, your turn at bat.

Lonnie