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Unacceptable Steering Effort
Quote from James Neufeld on November 12, 2021, 4:49 pm'79 XLS1000 with Texas Sidecars Ranger. The motor is a Stage 2 S&S 72cu in stroker with the expected performance enhancing cams, carb, XRL valves, Dyna Ignition, Andrews gears, etc. Power is adequate. We got the chair because arthritis made it too difficult to ride 2 up, and it's no fun to ride without one's beloved. It won't be the daily driver. We have had it for 31 years, which is why it's worth it to us put $ into an Ironhead.
At this point I have ridden it 3 times with the hack and I am finding the steering effort to be downright unacceptable - as in turning almost requires a cheater bar. I think this is the result of over abundant rake (30.1 deg) and trail (4.7 in). So far I have been unable to find anywhere that makes or sells trail compensated triple clamps for the 35mm Narrow Glide, which means custom made. I have so much $ in it so far that it's worth paying what it costs (~$1500) to have it steer easily. I want to be sure what trail I'm asking the shop to fabricate, because @ $1500 each the 1st one has to be right.
Since too little trail = tankslapper, I am asking what other people have found to work well. It seems like ~2" of trail is the consensus and I am planning to install a steering damper - looking for minimal steering effort (major arthritis in shoulders) with the necessary stability. Yes, I'm aware that the 35mm forks are kind of spindly, but that's what it has with fork brace added. It won't driven hard.
Asking for advice/input about rake/trail and anything else I need to know to resolve the problem. I have had motorcycles my entire adult life, but am entirely new to sidecars.
Thanks,
revjen45
'79 XLS1000 with Texas Sidecars Ranger. The motor is a Stage 2 S&S 72cu in stroker with the expected performance enhancing cams, carb, XRL valves, Dyna Ignition, Andrews gears, etc. Power is adequate. We got the chair because arthritis made it too difficult to ride 2 up, and it's no fun to ride without one's beloved. It won't be the daily driver. We have had it for 31 years, which is why it's worth it to us put $ into an Ironhead.
At this point I have ridden it 3 times with the hack and I am finding the steering effort to be downright unacceptable - as in turning almost requires a cheater bar. I think this is the result of over abundant rake (30.1 deg) and trail (4.7 in). So far I have been unable to find anywhere that makes or sells trail compensated triple clamps for the 35mm Narrow Glide, which means custom made. I have so much $ in it so far that it's worth paying what it costs (~$1500) to have it steer easily. I want to be sure what trail I'm asking the shop to fabricate, because @ $1500 each the 1st one has to be right.
Since too little trail = tankslapper, I am asking what other people have found to work well. It seems like ~2" of trail is the consensus and I am planning to install a steering damper - looking for minimal steering effort (major arthritis in shoulders) with the necessary stability. Yes, I'm aware that the 35mm forks are kind of spindly, but that's what it has with fork brace added. It won't driven hard.
Asking for advice/input about rake/trail and anything else I need to know to resolve the problem. I have had motorcycles my entire adult life, but am entirely new to sidecars.
Thanks,
revjen45
Quote from smitty901 on November 13, 2021, 4:28 pmI am sure others will join in. Jay has forgot more about mounting a sidecar on a Sporty than others will ever know.
Question you said you had a 30 degree rake already. Did you have it raked or are you assuming that is the bikes stock rake?
If I remember right that bike had a really different front end compared to most like it . Almost like it had a lot of rake from the factory.
Who mounted the car ? Pictures would help a lot.
On that bike it should not be that big a deal Sounds like there maybe other mounting issues.
I am sure others will join in. Jay has forgot more about mounting a sidecar on a Sporty than others will ever know.
Question you said you had a 30 degree rake already. Did you have it raked or are you assuming that is the bikes stock rake?
If I remember right that bike had a really different front end compared to most like it . Almost like it had a lot of rake from the factory.
Who mounted the car ? Pictures would help a lot.
On that bike it should not be that big a deal Sounds like there maybe other mounting issues.
Quote from CCjon on November 13, 2021, 9:57 pmJames,
I have a never mounted UNITS leading link for the Harley Sportster narrow front end that would reduce your steering effort. Shoot me an PM if interested. Am in Houston, TX.
James,
I have a never mounted UNITS leading link for the Harley Sportster narrow front end that would reduce your steering effort. Shoot me an PM if interested. Am in Houston, TX.
Quote from James Neufeld on November 14, 2021, 12:18 pm"Question you said you had a 30 degree rake already. Did you have it raked or are you assuming that is the bikes stock rake?"
Answer to a post on another forum: The responder said that Rake/Trail = 30.1 deg/4.7" It is the stock 35mm Narrow Glide with stock Rake and Trail.
The hack was mounted at the local indie HD shop I patronize. It tracks straight, and Steve (owner of the shop) didn't seem to have a hard time with it. I know I need to get more ride time, but it's likely I will want do what is necessary to make it steer with less effort.
Pics: Will need to input from the camera to my computer for sharing.
"Question you said you had a 30 degree rake already. Did you have it raked or are you assuming that is the bikes stock rake?"
Answer to a post on another forum: The responder said that Rake/Trail = 30.1 deg/4.7" It is the stock 35mm Narrow Glide with stock Rake and Trail.
The hack was mounted at the local indie HD shop I patronize. It tracks straight, and Steve (owner of the shop) didn't seem to have a hard time with it. I know I need to get more ride time, but it's likely I will want do what is necessary to make it steer with less effort.
Pics: Will need to input from the camera to my computer for sharing.
Quote from CCjon on November 14, 2021, 8:13 pmThis is what the UNITS leading link looks like. You will need an experienced mechanic to help you install it.
This is what the UNITS leading link looks like. You will need an experienced mechanic to help you install it.
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Quote from SwampFox on November 15, 2021, 7:35 amJames, I'm recalling from memory, so I may be inaccurate: We installed 5° triple trees from Hawg Halters on our 2003 XL883R with Texas Ranger with excellent results - seems trail was reduced to ±1.5 -2.0 inches.
Presuming it matches your application, the Unit Forks leading link offered by CCJon could solve your situation, especially as leading links help eliminate the front-end drive under braking.
It may also be beneficial to contact bill@customtripletrees.com (630-858-6416) to discuss your technical details of you application. Look here are more information: https://customtripletrees.com/MAIN%20PAGES/tech.html
James, I'm recalling from memory, so I may be inaccurate: We installed 5° triple trees from Hawg Halters on our 2003 XL883R with Texas Ranger with excellent results - seems trail was reduced to ±1.5 -2.0 inches.
Presuming it matches your application, the Unit Forks leading link offered by CCJon could solve your situation, especially as leading links help eliminate the front-end drive under braking.
It may also be beneficial to contact bill@customtripletrees.com (630-858-6416) to discuss your technical details of you application. Look here are more information: https://customtripletrees.com/MAIN%20PAGES/tech.html
Quote from jaydmc on November 15, 2021, 9:20 amKeep in mind rake and trail are two different things. We are not worried about what the Rake is all that much. The issue is most people and companies that make trail reducing triple tree's say that they are "raking" the front end. What they are doing is changing the angle of the forks in relationship to the steering head. This does not change rake, just looks like it does. This is also why off set bearings that really do "rake" the front end do little to change the steering effort.
In any event how much trail you need depends a lot on where you are riding. If you are in the plain's state region where there is not a lot of turning once out on the highway you might find a bit more trail to be nice so that it is not following every grove in the pavement. If you are mainly riding in the twisties you may want less trail. Or for medical reasons you may find that you want as light as possible and can live with hunting out on the highway. In general if we are not building a front end for a specific individual or use we shoot for about 2 inches of trail. My wife has shoulder issues. On her last BMW I set the trail at 1.2 inches. It was great fun to ride however people who are use to riding a bike with out modified steering found the bike to be almost not ridable as they were all over the road until they got use to it. 1.2 inches is about the least I would go with a stock front tire. Anything more then about 2 3/4 might not be worth the effort.
So in short, no easy answers to your question.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
Keep in mind rake and trail are two different things. We are not worried about what the Rake is all that much. The issue is most people and companies that make trail reducing triple tree's say that they are "raking" the front end. What they are doing is changing the angle of the forks in relationship to the steering head. This does not change rake, just looks like it does. This is also why off set bearings that really do "rake" the front end do little to change the steering effort.
In any event how much trail you need depends a lot on where you are riding. If you are in the plain's state region where there is not a lot of turning once out on the highway you might find a bit more trail to be nice so that it is not following every grove in the pavement. If you are mainly riding in the twisties you may want less trail. Or for medical reasons you may find that you want as light as possible and can live with hunting out on the highway. In general if we are not building a front end for a specific individual or use we shoot for about 2 inches of trail. My wife has shoulder issues. On her last BMW I set the trail at 1.2 inches. It was great fun to ride however people who are use to riding a bike with out modified steering found the bike to be almost not ridable as they were all over the road until they got use to it. 1.2 inches is about the least I would go with a stock front tire. Anything more then about 2 3/4 might not be worth the effort.
So in short, no easy answers to your question.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
Quote from James Neufeld on November 16, 2021, 10:22 amI have never seen the UNITS set-up before. Looks like the legs plug into the triple trees where the tubes are now, which means it would have to match the tube dia. (35mm) and adapting the wheel, brake, and fender. If that could be done without spending too much money it would be the ideal fix.
SwampFox answers my questions about how well the Hawg Halters 5 deg kick-out works. The later forks are wider and have 39mm tubes, which may mean that the 35mm is less rigid, but I don't plan to be riding it hard and it has a fork brace. Assuming the suitability of the 35mm ft end with trail-compensated triple trees it seems like that involves the least re-jiggering of wheel, brake discs and calipers, fender bracket, etc. - just install the new trees and put it back together. Thanks for the link.
I think I have spoken with Jay before and he referred me to Hawg Halters, who said 5 deg. So far it looks like a set of trees with 5 deg of kick out is what I am looking for.
I appreciate all the advice, and will check out Custom Triple Trees.
I have never seen the UNITS set-up before. Looks like the legs plug into the triple trees where the tubes are now, which means it would have to match the tube dia. (35mm) and adapting the wheel, brake, and fender. If that could be done without spending too much money it would be the ideal fix.
SwampFox answers my questions about how well the Hawg Halters 5 deg kick-out works. The later forks are wider and have 39mm tubes, which may mean that the 35mm is less rigid, but I don't plan to be riding it hard and it has a fork brace. Assuming the suitability of the 35mm ft end with trail-compensated triple trees it seems like that involves the least re-jiggering of wheel, brake discs and calipers, fender bracket, etc. - just install the new trees and put it back together. Thanks for the link.
I think I have spoken with Jay before and he referred me to Hawg Halters, who said 5 deg. So far it looks like a set of trees with 5 deg of kick out is what I am looking for.
I appreciate all the advice, and will check out Custom Triple Trees.
Quote from James Neufeld on November 19, 2021, 11:07 amSwamp Fox has provided the answer to my problem. I am in touch with Bill @ Custom Triple Trees and anticipate sending them a cheque as soon as we decide on all the details. The UNITS set-up looks like the way to go if I had more $, but at this point we have a lot invested and the set up from Custom Triple Trees with 5 deg of kick-out is the most economical answer. I spoke with the folks @ Hawg Halters, who recommended 5 deg. I figure they know what they're doing, so that's what I'm going with. We don't anticipate putting a lot of freeway miles on it - more secondary roads with curves, so that seems like the way to go. I am really looking forward to seeing how it handles with the new trees.
Swamp Fox has provided the answer to my problem. I am in touch with Bill @ Custom Triple Trees and anticipate sending them a cheque as soon as we decide on all the details. The UNITS set-up looks like the way to go if I had more $, but at this point we have a lot invested and the set up from Custom Triple Trees with 5 deg of kick-out is the most economical answer. I spoke with the folks @ Hawg Halters, who recommended 5 deg. I figure they know what they're doing, so that's what I'm going with. We don't anticipate putting a lot of freeway miles on it - more secondary roads with curves, so that seems like the way to go. I am really looking forward to seeing how it handles with the new trees.
Quote from AceinSav on November 19, 2021, 12:06 pmJames in short it's like the difference between night and day, just be careful when you first start out as it will be VERY input sensitive but you will adapt quickly. let us know what you think once you have them installed and ride a bit
James in short it's like the difference between night and day, just be careful when you first start out as it will be VERY input sensitive but you will adapt quickly. let us know what you think once you have them installed and ride a bit
Quote from CCjon on November 19, 2021, 12:50 pmJames, am sure you will be very happy with CustomTriple Trees, they have make a good product. Let us know if you need help or advice on installing the new trees.
James, am sure you will be very happy with CustomTriple Trees, they have make a good product. Let us know if you need help or advice on installing the new trees.
Quote from GuzziSteve on November 21, 2021, 11:26 amDon't forget that once you change rake then it will seem weird solo w/o sidecare. That is if you are using it both ways. Made my Guzzi w/35mm forks full time rig so if I take it off for maintenance work I have to ride solo. I have Earle forks on mine, one finger steering w/a Volkswagen steering dampener.
Don't forget that once you change rake then it will seem weird solo w/o sidecare. That is if you are using it both ways. Made my Guzzi w/35mm forks full time rig so if I take it off for maintenance work I have to ride solo. I have Earle forks on mine, one finger steering w/a Volkswagen steering dampener.
Quote from James Neufeld on November 25, 2021, 10:20 amI sent my cheque to Custom Triple Trees yesterday, ETA Monday. Hopefully there won't be any hold-ups. The new trees will be installed by the same shop that mounted the chair. The same arthritis that necessitated the hack makes wrenching on it exponentially more difficult, so at this point in life it's worth paying somebody who knows what they're doing for mechanical work.
I really appreciate all the knowledge that has been shared with me on this forum. Before finding out about Custom Triple Trees the plan was for a 1-off from another custom tree shop, which would have been a lot more expensive. Also, CTT has made hundreds of 5 deg trees for the narrow Glide forks, while the other shop would have been doing their 1st set. I eagerly await the new trees to find out how driving it feels when it doesn't take a cheater bar to steer. Bill definitely knew all about what I need and recommended against adding some unneeded options, which was appreciated. Expecting a big difference with the new trees.
I sent my cheque to Custom Triple Trees yesterday, ETA Monday. Hopefully there won't be any hold-ups. The new trees will be installed by the same shop that mounted the chair. The same arthritis that necessitated the hack makes wrenching on it exponentially more difficult, so at this point in life it's worth paying somebody who knows what they're doing for mechanical work.
I really appreciate all the knowledge that has been shared with me on this forum. Before finding out about Custom Triple Trees the plan was for a 1-off from another custom tree shop, which would have been a lot more expensive. Also, CTT has made hundreds of 5 deg trees for the narrow Glide forks, while the other shop would have been doing their 1st set. I eagerly await the new trees to find out how driving it feels when it doesn't take a cheater bar to steer. Bill definitely knew all about what I need and recommended against adding some unneeded options, which was appreciated. Expecting a big difference with the new trees.
Quote from James Neufeld on November 28, 2021, 11:14 amCheque sent to Custom Triple Trees. Now it's just waiting, like a kid before Christmas. Weather here (North of Seattle) has sucked for riding, so hopefully things will improve when it's time to rock my new trees on the street.
You can bet I will share the results.
Cheque sent to Custom Triple Trees. Now it's just waiting, like a kid before Christmas. Weather here (North of Seattle) has sucked for riding, so hopefully things will improve when it's time to rock my new trees on the street.
You can bet I will share the results.
Quote from James Neufeld on December 25, 2021, 9:24 amAfter a conversation in which I ordered a steering damper Bill called me back with the suggestion that I should consider 6 1/4 deg offset. He knows a lot more about it than I do so I agreed. I am looking forward to seeing how it works. From what I have seen it should steer with a light touch and the adjustable damper will allow me to tune out wobble. It will be a lot more fun when steering is better than marginal.
I thought this was good individual customer service to have him call me the next day after reflecting on our conversation.
After a conversation in which I ordered a steering damper Bill called me back with the suggestion that I should consider 6 1/4 deg offset. He knows a lot more about it than I do so I agreed. I am looking forward to seeing how it works. From what I have seen it should steer with a light touch and the adjustable damper will allow me to tune out wobble. It will be a lot more fun when steering is better than marginal.
I thought this was good individual customer service to have him call me the next day after reflecting on our conversation.
Quote from CCjon on December 25, 2021, 12:53 pmJames, Bill at Custom TT is a good man. Runs a business that thinks and cares about the customer experience.
Will be interested in hearing your reaction and experience with a 6.25 degree offset. You should find minimal steering effort needed.
Are you still getting the damper?
James, Bill at Custom TT is a good man. Runs a business that thinks and cares about the customer experience.
Will be interested in hearing your reaction and experience with a 6.25 degree offset. You should find minimal steering effort needed.
Are you still getting the damper?
Quote from James Neufeld on December 26, 2021, 10:08 amYes, I'm still getting the damper. The conversation when I called to order the damper resulted in the call suggesting the 6.25 deg offset the following day. Bill said it would use more of the adjustable damper's range (if I understood and remember correctly) with a light touch in steering. The trees and damper should ship in the 1st week of '22. I really do appreciate that he actually thought about it and called me back.
The decision to get the damper (5th sortie with the hack) involved a scary wobble with minimal steering control. Arthritis in both shoulders may have tipped it toward light steering, which makes sense. I really look forward to seeing what it's like to steer with a light touch. I will definitely let you know how it works.
Yes, I'm still getting the damper. The conversation when I called to order the damper resulted in the call suggesting the 6.25 deg offset the following day. Bill said it would use more of the adjustable damper's range (if I understood and remember correctly) with a light touch in steering. The trees and damper should ship in the 1st week of '22. I really do appreciate that he actually thought about it and called me back.
The decision to get the damper (5th sortie with the hack) involved a scary wobble with minimal steering control. Arthritis in both shoulders may have tipped it toward light steering, which makes sense. I really look forward to seeing what it's like to steer with a light touch. I will definitely let you know how it works.
Quote from James Neufeld on January 18, 2022, 9:30 amThe trees arrived last night, and they are beautiful! I will be calling the shop today to arrange for the bike to be transported when they are ready to do the job.
The trees arrived last night, and they are beautiful! I will be calling the shop today to arrange for the bike to be transported when they are ready to do the job.
Quote from AceinSav on January 18, 2022, 12:59 pmgood deal,, looking forward to your report after they are installed
good deal,, looking forward to your report after they are installed
Quote from James Neufeld on January 20, 2022, 10:02 amUnfortunately the shop can't get to it for 2 weeks. I am looking forward to sharing the results with everyone.
Unfortunately the shop can't get to it for 2 weeks. I am looking forward to sharing the results with everyone.