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To Rake, or not to Rake . . . .

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I have a new '08 Ultra with sidecar, which I'd placed on order last Fall, and today I got a chance to drive it around for the first time. I purposely use the word "drive", since I now know how the handling differs from "riding" a two wheel motorcycle.

When I mentioned the idea of raking the front end to the Dealer, to help with steering, I was met with a blank stare. My Dealer deals with Police hacks only on occasion for the most part, and there not a lot of depth of knowledge.

But now that I've had a chance to drive my rig, I see how one has to steer through turns and hold the handle bars in place as they fight you to go straight, which the dynamics dictate. I believe that it's this effort that the additional rake angle is supposed to help alleviate.

Does anyone have experience with using their hack both before and after the rake was increased? Is it enough of a difference to be worth the cost, or would that really depend on the amount of hard turning one expects to see each day?

I still very new to the world of sidecars, and was pleased to learn that a steering damper is including in the Harley Davidson sidecar kit. At this point both the bike and I are in our break-in period. Thanks in advance for anyone's thoughts.

Steve...I Hear Ya Man.. I To have wondered the the same thing- and being your Rig is new I can only tell you from my what i learned in the last year of riding. I took about 400 to 500 miles before my rig seem to get better. I don't know if this is because i got more muscles or cause the tires wore down some or because i added a little more air into the suspension. maybe becase i just got more familiar and could relax more. All I really know is it did get alot better. I'm also on the fence for raking the front because of all the extra junk in the front of the dressers that make it hard to get to. Thinking if i would do it i would probably do it the same time as having the lowers(forks) changed to chrom. Well thats my $.02 Ed.

Raked triple trees have been covered heavily on these forums.

Bottom line is:
Fingertip steering just like power steering is achieved and the steering damper is no longer needed to control front end wobble and the shoulders no longer get tired from controlling the rig.
Well worth the expense.

Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars

Lonnie is right.

All I can ad is my own experience with raked trees on my outfit. It makes the steering so controlled that I can ride no-handed on smooth roads without going into a wobble for short distances. Cornering is amazing and safety and control most reassuring. What is the value of such a thing? Well I looked at it from the point of view that since I purchased a Harley Davidson and paid what I believe to be a very high price for a motorcycle that the addition of a few hundred more in labor and materials was a small matter. The silky smooth steering and ease of control were worth the $500 or so that I spent on this. When you do a 400 mile or greater day it sure is nice to not worry about exhausted arm muscles at the end of that day.

I can't speak from prior experience with unraked rigs but I believe that as far as pulling the front end of a Big Twin apart that if you install the factory steering damper (which I believe is required) you'll have to do that anyhow (or your dealer will at a substantial labor rate) so if you're going to pull the front end apart to install a steering damper why not just change out your trees?

Thanks for the feedback and it would seem that raking the front end is a good investment if you have the resources. It's interesting that Harley didn't mention a "damper" in the conversation regarding the sidecar and I actually spoke with the Customization Sales Rep and he didn't seem to know much about dampers for use with a sidecar. But in the end the sidecar is installed and a damper was included in the package from the factory. It appears to connect below the faring, so I'm not sure that it was removed during the install. If I'd known that they were going to take the faring off for an installation, I would have given thought to the raked "triple tree" early on. But in my pictures of the bike in the shop the faring is still attached, with the seat and both saddlebags removed (along with the lower right faring, which is replaced).

I had a couple of spills on my Sportster, which is my reason for getting onto three wheels and I'm dealing with a rather long screw in my left shoulder and some residual aches and pains. I didn't find that the effort during a few short rides in town caused any pain, but I'm also dealing with the final stages of rehabilitation. Like the first person to respond, I have a feeling I'd get used to the effort in turns over time. But, if I'm doing a lot of driving in town, I'll have to move in that direction.

IF you are never going to remove the sidecar [you cant ever ride the bike without a sidecar once you put in a raked tree]

if its true that you wont remove the side car - then run, do not walk, to your computer and get the raked tree - i ran 4000 miles without and then when i got my new 2007 ultra i bit the bullet and got a liberty tree - installed the tree myself [a BIG JOB] but i DID NOT remove the whole fairing - just the outer shell & the radio - then supported the bars from the ceiling on bungies and changed out the tree.

after one mile i felt a fool for not changing the tree on the other bike - for me it was that much improvement

1 - i wont EVER ride one without a raked tree again - its one of those changes that most dealers just have no idea about - however really old mechanics and really old parts guys will say its obvious - >>>>>harley shipped all sidecar bikes prior to 84 with a adjustable raked tree<<<< the difference is that now you cant adjust it - its permanent.

2 - they say to not use the damper - i tried it both ways and left mine on - its more stable at speed on the freeway especially in heavy stop and go traffic. ymmv

3 - liberty trees come with a pair of fork spacers - if you leave them out it lowers the front 1" - but there IS a risk of putting a dent in the front fender [personal experience] installing them requires more work on the front tubes.

4 - i did the whole job myself in one long day - a experienced mech should be able to do it faster.

to

The current price on a set of raked trees is around $800 I understand. To that, add around 8 hours of shop labor if you don't do your own work. Where I am that's another $720. If you are never, ever going to take the sidecar off it might be a worthwhile investment.

Harley has a warning in the sidecar manual against using raked trees for solo riding and others will tell you this as well. The MoCo used to make adjustable triple trees in the Panhead era but gave up later on due to lack of demand.

I use the stock steering damper and a good setup to make do. It seems to be fine although I'm told that the raked trees are good. Since I can't swear that I will never need to remove the sidecar for any reason, I'll leave the stock trees on. BTW, I'm really surprised that your dealer failed to install the steering damper. It's part of the installation job.

If you have the money and want to do it, I say go ahead.

As a person with a bad shoulder injury you better go with leading link fork, for not to pass through the same akes and new damages as I have to pass through with my bad spline. (Last year I had my right hand 6 weeks paramized after 6 years of peace, just because of a wild 47 hour trip.)
Here where I live is no change to get one, but I had the change to try it. and it was great.
Sven Peter Pan

Originally written by Peter Pan on 2/10/2008 8:29 PM

As a person with a bad shoulder injury you better go with leading link fork, for not to pass through the same akes and new damages as I have to pass through with my bad spline. (Last year I had my right hand 6 weeks paramized after 6 years of peace, just because of a wild 47 hour trip.)
Here where I live is no change to get one, but I had the change to try it. and it was great.
Sven Peter Pan

Yeah, I understand that the Earles-type forks are excellent on sidecars. Unfortunately they aren't available for the Harleys - at least I've not seen any. The only ones I've seen were on BMW's.

Originally written by gnm109 on 2/11/2008 1:45 AM
Yeah, I understand that the Earles-type forks are excellent on sidecars. Unfortunately they aren't available for the Harleys - at least I've not seen any. The only ones I've seen were on BMW's.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Leading Links are avaiable for Harleys. Kevin, the USCA W.Va. rep has them on his. Have seen others as well. Actually I think Kevin's are from Unit,,,check it out..
Contact Kevin:
West Virginia
Kevin Klaggs
151 Grandview Dr.
Wellsburg, WV. 26070
304-737-1531

I'd not seen that design, and it's interesting. But I'm not sure I'd want to convert an '08 Ultra at this point, so a new front fork is probably not in the cards.

To be honest, I need to drive my rig for a while to see if the handling is so difficult that I need the help of an additional 5 degree rake. But, as noted by one poster, the bike is then dedicated to being a sidecar rig (unless you're going to convert it into a trike). Of course, we all keep the old parts and one could convert it back, but that really expands the meaning of a removable sidecar rig. Now I don't plan on trying to remove my sidecar, after waiting two months to get this rig put together, but it's one of my mental arguments for choosing a sidecar over a trike for stability. Not to mention the fact that it looks far more traditional.

As far as the strain on my shoulder is concerned, my injury was primarily an issue of physical therapy to regain motion, rather than a loss of range. It took two weeks for them to get me into surgery and that let a lot of muscles atrophy, so it took months to regain their use. As it is, they'd like to go in and clean it up some more, but I'm running out of insurance to cover PT and that may have to wait until next year. Such are the glories of our insurance/medical limitations.

I've been hearing about these triple trees for a long time, but never asked;
Does this make the wheel base longer or shorter?

heres a page from Liberty sidecars, I guess to answer uncle ernies it would appear it would ever so slightly. Good info on Libertys site. http://www.libertysidecars.com/product2.htm I think im going order it up, i only wonder how it may efect HD's warrenty?? knowing HD it would probably void everything. Ed.

Originally written by Modelflyered on 2/11/2008 7:38 AM

heres a page from Liberty sidecars, I guess to answer uncle ernies it would appear it would ever so slightly. Good info on Libertys site. http://www.libertysidecars.com/product2.htm I think im going order it up, i only wonder how it may efect HD's warrenty?? knowing HD it would probably void everything. Ed.

I'm fairly certain that changibg forks would void the warrantty on the entire frame. And, if you think about it, why not? Companies spend milions of dollars on testing with a set configuration. If a change is made no one can predict what will happen under stressful conditions. At that point, you're basically on your own.

I'm interested to discover that someone has made an Earles fork for a late-model Harley. If it could be done without removing the triple trees, it would be one way to go. Forget solo riding after that.

Steve, I certainly understand your concern about being able to take the sidecar off for solo use in the future. No really good answer. I have reduced trails on both my rigs, an currently thinking about getting adjustable trail on the Goldwing so I could ride it solo. Harley's with sidecars are reasonbly common (as common as any rig, I would think). Perhaps you could find someone who has reduced trail and swap rigs for a short ride so you could see first hand? Maybe at a rally or something?

i was told that changing the trees only voided the warranty on the trees and bearings

its not as problematical as changing pipes or air cleaners or cams etc.

for most harley warranty issues - aftermarket parts effect the epa compliance and they are not supposed to send a bike out of the shop on the street with plates on it that is not epa compliant.

however it WOULD be a good idea to try and find a bike w sidecar with raked trees and ride that - or find a trike and ride that - the raked trees are the same for trike and sidecar use.

later

to

When I started this thread I was interested in the experiences of others, but I'd already done a lot of reading on various web sites, including the Liberty Sidecar site in the Northwest. Champion Sidecars in California also has a triple-tree that provides a 5-degree rake, and I believe the "sweet spot" is between 4 and 5 degress.

It's fairly clear from the responses that a raked front end would help with handling in turns, and I've seen no one express regrets in any postings. Someone had mentioned that Harley used to include an adjustable T-Tree with their sidecars a couple of decades ago, but the interest was limited and, like the additional sidecar ballast weight, that accessory was discontinued due to lack of interest. Both have their place, and if the popularity of sidecars increases they'll probably make a comeback.

I have to mention that while I was recoverring from my shoulder injury, I did a lot of Internet research on what to replace my Sportster with for greater stability. I was leaning toward a trike until I actually spoke with the Dealer, but there are a number of shops that specialize in accessories for those who are handicapped and want to keep riding. http://hausoftrikes.com/index.htm has a variety of offerings from automatic clutches, to complete automatic transmissions, to re-routed brake lines to both hand grips, there are a variety of modifications one can make to keep someone who has a handicap in the saddle.

I don't want to change the thrust of this thread, but I felt it worh mentioning.

Originally written by timo482 on 2/11/2008 10:03 AM

i was told that changing the trees only voided the warranty on the trees and bearings

its not as problematical as changing pipes or air cleaners or cams etc.

for most harley warranty issues - aftermarket parts effect the epa compliance and they are not supposed to send a bike out of the shop on the street with plates on it that is not epa compliant.

however it WOULD be a good idea to try and find a bike w sidecar with raked trees and ride that - or find a trike and ride that - the raked trees are the same for trike and sidecar use.

later

to

I wouldn't bet on a frame warranty in the event of some form of damage after changing forks to leading link. In any case, I was talking about an entirely new fork, not just the trees. My experience has been that the dealers take the hard line on warranty issues when extensive modifications are made and why not?

Originally written by Uncle Ernie on 2/11/2008 10:24 AM

I've been hearing about these triple trees for a long time, but never asked;
Does this make the wheel base longer or shorter?

Longer Ernie. See attached picture on how trail is measured and it will make sense.
These discussions can create some confusion due to the use of the word 'rake'.
There is 'rake ' which applies to the steering head angle and there is 'trail' that more or less equates to what caster is on a car. The two work together.
On a sidecar rig 99.9% of the time we do not change the rake but the trail to get easier steering. To do this we may go to a leading link or to modified triple trees amoung other things. The modified trees are many times referred to as 'raked trees' which has nothing to do with changing the actual true 'rake' of the steering head.
Then of course there is the rake that is used to move leaves around but that is another story.
See atatched picture

Attached files

Other ways to ease steering:
* Lower profile front tire (reduces trail)
* Sliding fork tubes up farther through trees (reduces trail)
* Raising rear of bike (Reduces trail)
* Wider handlebars (more leverage)
* Move fork assemble forward with bracketry(reduces trail)(SEE ATTACHED)
* Move front axle forward with bracketry(reduces trail)(SEE ATTACHED)
* Workout a little

Attached files

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