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newbie questions...
Quote from katie on June 9, 2014, 6:59 pmHi,
I am very new to this list, I was delighted to find a sidecar group!
I am starting my quest for a side car rig and have many many questions.
I have ridden different bikes for 30+ years and since for some reason I am not getting younger, more limber or stronger I thought I would look for a unit that will be a bit more forgiving (?) to travel with.
First, is there any training within 6-8 hours of Phoenix? I'd like to learn to do it "right" from the beginning.
I am also thinking I need a bike with reverse, how hard is it to push back a rig (say a 1000 cc size bike) should you foolishly park somewhere that you can't drive out? It seems reverse is only in the Ural and Goldwing.
What is the most stable unit to drive? Can it go highway speeds safely (65-70)?
That's it for the beginning.
Thank you
Katie
Hi,
I am very new to this list, I was delighted to find a sidecar group!
I am starting my quest for a side car rig and have many many questions.
I have ridden different bikes for 30+ years and since for some reason I am not getting younger, more limber or stronger I thought I would look for a unit that will be a bit more forgiving (?) to travel with.
First, is there any training within 6-8 hours of Phoenix? I'd like to learn to do it "right" from the beginning.
I am also thinking I need a bike with reverse, how hard is it to push back a rig (say a 1000 cc size bike) should you foolishly park somewhere that you can't drive out? It seems reverse is only in the Ural and Goldwing.
What is the most stable unit to drive? Can it go highway speeds safely (65-70)?
That's it for the beginning.
Thank you
Katie
Quote from OldSchool_IsCool on June 9, 2014, 7:10 pmWelcome to the slightly off-center world of sidecars!
Is your goal to ride blacktop only or would you also like to do some two-tracking? A Goldwing with reverse is a big bike and needs a big car. Not so suitable for off road. A Ural is great off-road, but not as powerful on the interstates. I think you can get some Harley tugs with reverse.
Someone should be along shortly who can advise you on classes. You are wise to learn first!
Lots of great advice can be found on this site. And don't be afraid to ask questions. Pretty friendly group here.
Welcome to the slightly off-center world of sidecars!
Is your goal to ride blacktop only or would you also like to do some two-tracking? A Goldwing with reverse is a big bike and needs a big car. Not so suitable for off road. A Ural is great off-road, but not as powerful on the interstates. I think you can get some Harley tugs with reverse.
Someone should be along shortly who can advise you on classes. You are wise to learn first!
Lots of great advice can be found on this site. And don't be afraid to ask questions. Pretty friendly group here.
Quote from katie on June 9, 2014, 7:16 pmdoing some gravel would be good....I have a dual sport now, but honestly I just don't know. From what I've read the Urals look great for that but I don't want to deal with all the maintenance with them and my husband and I tour whenever we can, that's why I was thinking of the Gold wing and just do the dirt on the WeeStrom. I'm really up in the air on this.
doing some gravel would be good....I have a dual sport now, but honestly I just don't know. From what I've read the Urals look great for that but I don't want to deal with all the maintenance with them and my husband and I tour whenever we can, that's why I was thinking of the Gold wing and just do the dirt on the WeeStrom. I'm really up in the air on this.
Quote from SwampFox on June 9, 2014, 8:16 pmkatie - 6/9/2014 7:16 PM
doing some gravel would be good....I have a dual sport now, but honestly I just don't know.... I'm really up in the air on this.Hi katie - Welcome to the offset sidecar universe. I second the suggestion of sidecar training - altho a rig looks like a motorcycle, it sure doesn't drive like a motorcycle.
There are many shapes & sizes of sidecars for many purposes, but among the best all-rounders are the combination of a mid-size (650cc-1000cc) standard bike with a perimeter frame with a properly mounted sidecar., such as the below Triumph rigs from New Mexico, which can travel the highways as well as some unpaved roads. It's better to select a tug that has the mounts, subframe, steering modification, etc. readily available.
katie - 6/9/2014 7:16 PM
doing some gravel would be good....I have a dual sport now, but honestly I just don't know.... I'm really up in the air on this.
Hi katie - Welcome to the offset sidecar universe. I second the suggestion of sidecar training - altho a rig looks like a motorcycle, it sure doesn't drive like a motorcycle.
There are many shapes & sizes of sidecars for many purposes, but among the best all-rounders are the combination of a mid-size (650cc-1000cc) standard bike with a perimeter frame with a properly mounted sidecar., such as the below Triumph rigs from New Mexico, which can travel the highways as well as some unpaved roads. It's better to select a tug that has the mounts, subframe, steering modification, etc. readily available.
Quote from Hack__n on June 9, 2014, 9:44 pmKatie,
Most sidecar rigs get by without a reverse gear. They are easier to push backward than a solo bike since you don't have to balance the bike as you move it backward. Just get off and push.
Usually folks with solo bikes, or sidecar rigs, park so they can leave going forward.
With no training sites available, one of the best ways for getting sidecar familiar is to download the books available for free on this site and peruse them for the basics of three wheeling. After choosing your rig, find an unused parking lot and practice, practice, practice the range exercises till you are comfortable with driving it.
For a rig that can keep up with freeway traffic, I would suggest a tug that is around 1 liter (1000cc's).
Freeway touring and off-road work are on two different spectrums of sidecaring. With that in mind you should make your choice of rig one that will work well with what type of driving surfaces you will wish to do most often.
Then what will you be using the hack for will come into play. Passenger or not, a dog?, camping, day tripping, long tours? There are many compromises to consider.
Visiting a sidecar rally is a good way to compare different styles of rigs and most owners are glad to share their experience with others.
Your choice of tug should be one that has good customer support and will need a minimum of maintenance. I've found offerings from Yamaha and Honda seem to have less mechanical problems and some of the best parts availability, especially for older models.
There is no "One best rig" for all purposes.Good Luck in your quest,
Lonnie
Many others are good tugs but have fewer dealers to choose from on the road if a breakdown occurs.
Katie,
Most sidecar rigs get by without a reverse gear. They are easier to push backward than a solo bike since you don't have to balance the bike as you move it backward. Just get off and push.
Usually folks with solo bikes, or sidecar rigs, park so they can leave going forward.
With no training sites available, one of the best ways for getting sidecar familiar is to download the books available for free on this site and peruse them for the basics of three wheeling. After choosing your rig, find an unused parking lot and practice, practice, practice the range exercises till you are comfortable with driving it.
For a rig that can keep up with freeway traffic, I would suggest a tug that is around 1 liter (1000cc's).
Freeway touring and off-road work are on two different spectrums of sidecaring. With that in mind you should make your choice of rig one that will work well with what type of driving surfaces you will wish to do most often.
Then what will you be using the hack for will come into play. Passenger or not, a dog?, camping, day tripping, long tours? There are many compromises to consider.
Visiting a sidecar rally is a good way to compare different styles of rigs and most owners are glad to share their experience with others.
Your choice of tug should be one that has good customer support and will need a minimum of maintenance. I've found offerings from Yamaha and Honda seem to have less mechanical problems and some of the best parts availability, especially for older models.
There is no "One best rig" for all purposes.
Good Luck in your quest,
Lonnie
Many others are good tugs but have fewer dealers to choose from on the road if a breakdown occurs.
Quote from Deleted user on June 9, 2014, 10:11 pmHi Katie:
I just looked at the available rigs on ebay. There is quite a selection. They are located all over the country. Lonnie's comments are quite to the point on the subject of reverse. Reverse would be nice but I have riden 70,000 miles on two rigs and have not needed reverse. Of course you have to make sure not to go places that you "have" to back out. I have learned to use gravity when I can. Beyond that my wife is a good reverse.Your post doesn't indicate where you are located but you should be able to find someone in your area to advise you. There are area directors and representatives in the USCA. Most are more than happy to help in whatever way they can.
Will Short
Rapid City, SD
North Central Director
Hi Katie:
I just looked at the available rigs on ebay. There is quite a selection. They are located all over the country. Lonnie's comments are quite to the point on the subject of reverse. Reverse would be nice but I have riden 70,000 miles on two rigs and have not needed reverse. Of course you have to make sure not to go places that you "have" to back out. I have learned to use gravity when I can. Beyond that my wife is a good reverse.
Your post doesn't indicate where you are located but you should be able to find someone in your area to advise you. There are area directors and representatives in the USCA. Most are more than happy to help in whatever way they can.
Will Short
Rapid City, SD
North Central Director
Quote from Tax Man on June 10, 2014, 12:31 amWe started with an '81 GoldWing and currently have a '98 Valkyrie on a Motorvation Formula II LTD sidecar. Neither has reverse. As Lonnie says, try to park so you can roll out, though I've been fooled by parking areas that looked level, or even sloped the opposite way I thought. The Valkyrie handles Interstate Highway speeds very well, but we prefer the 2-lane roads. We were on some pretty great roads in southern Indiana last week.
We started with an '81 GoldWing and currently have a '98 Valkyrie on a Motorvation Formula II LTD sidecar. Neither has reverse. As Lonnie says, try to park so you can roll out, though I've been fooled by parking areas that looked level, or even sloped the opposite way I thought. The Valkyrie handles Interstate Highway speeds very well, but we prefer the 2-lane roads. We were on some pretty great roads in southern Indiana last week.
Quote from katie on June 10, 2014, 9:56 amThanks for all the input. It sounds like I could do pretty well without reverse, that sure opens up some interesting possibilities.
Has anyone heard of training in the SouthWest? We live in the Phoenix area, very happy to go a bit of distance but don't want to head to the East Coast for this.
What affects stability they most? I'm thinking of for highway speeds...is it bike weight? car adjustment? combination? My husband is a fantastic mechanic with all our other bikes but is baffled by my desire for a side car...translates to doesn't really care to learn about them. Silly guy. So I'm looking for something that is ready to go not in need of many tweeks.
We both have had very good luck with the V-strom (Suzuki DL 1000) have you seen/heard about these with a car attached?
Thank you
Katie
Thanks for all the input. It sounds like I could do pretty well without reverse, that sure opens up some interesting possibilities.
Has anyone heard of training in the SouthWest? We live in the Phoenix area, very happy to go a bit of distance but don't want to head to the East Coast for this.
What affects stability they most? I'm thinking of for highway speeds...is it bike weight? car adjustment? combination? My husband is a fantastic mechanic with all our other bikes but is baffled by my desire for a side car...translates to doesn't really care to learn about them. Silly guy. So I'm looking for something that is ready to go not in need of many tweeks.
We both have had very good luck with the V-strom (Suzuki DL 1000) have you seen/heard about these with a car attached?
Thank you
Katie
Quote from Hack__n on June 10, 2014, 11:08 amThe V-Stroms are quite popular these days for tugs. Mainly for Dual Sport activities. Not the most comfortable touring rig though.
Just figure the most usage you have planned for the rig and go from there.
Lonnie
The V-Stroms are quite popular these days for tugs. Mainly for Dual Sport activities. Not the most comfortable touring rig though.
Just figure the most usage you have planned for the rig and go from there.
Lonnie
Quote from jaydmc on June 10, 2014, 11:29 amFirst and foremost what ever bike you chose make sure that proper mounts are made for it, It would be best to start with a bike that every thing is already developed for. If you are going to do some off pavement riding I would start with a dual sport type bike, If on the other hand you are just riding pavement then a Goldwing works fine. If you are doing a lot of highway driving a heavier bike works out better. You did not say if you are looking for new or used. Like Lonnie said the V stroms' work out well in both the 650cc and the 1000cc size. We offer bike specific mounts and steering modifications for the V strom's there are also photo's on our web site of V Strom rigs. I like running the BMW GS type bikes. In the used market the R1100GS is a great value as it has dropped in price about as far as it is ever going to while the older bikes are going up in value. Some other nice things about the R1100GS is it is one of the least expensive bikes to modify the steering, the parts run only $350. When ever you add a sidecar to a motorcycle you end up with heavy steering unless you modify the front end. You need to move the front wheel forward by about 2 inches, lots of ways to do this, some very expensive some not so much. The BMW having a Telelever front end rather then a standard type fork makes it one of the least expensive bikes around for front end modifications. The R1100 is the least expensive, The R1150GS a bit more ($1000 for the parts) due to a completely different design. The R1200GS is still more complicated to make the parts so it runs $1200 and the new water cooled GS runs $1400 for the parts unless you want to go all out with it in which case we now can even run a BMW GS rear wheel on the front of the new R1200GSA giving you all 3 wheels interchanging. Another issue with sidecars is that they are hard on rear tires, Some bikes you can mount a car tire right on the stock rim, others you need special wheels. For the R1100GS we have an automotive wheel conversion $1295, which is also the price for the R1150GS however the R1200GS the price is only $895, simpler parts to make.
As to reverse, it can be added to some bikes mostly Harley however with the sidecar reverse is much less needed then with out a sidecar as all you have to do is push. With a two wheeled motorcycle most of your effort when backing is making sure that the bike does not fall over. Not an issue with a sidecar, get off an push, not hard to do. You can also coast backwards into parking spots so that you can motor out.
As to training here is a link to the Evergreen safety council which administers the training nation wide http://evergreenmotorcycletraining.org/
We build 12 different models of sidecars along with bikes specific mounts and would be happy to work with you or just advise you on this.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
First and foremost what ever bike you chose make sure that proper mounts are made for it, It would be best to start with a bike that every thing is already developed for. If you are going to do some off pavement riding I would start with a dual sport type bike, If on the other hand you are just riding pavement then a Goldwing works fine. If you are doing a lot of highway driving a heavier bike works out better. You did not say if you are looking for new or used. Like Lonnie said the V stroms' work out well in both the 650cc and the 1000cc size. We offer bike specific mounts and steering modifications for the V strom's there are also photo's on our web site of V Strom rigs. I like running the BMW GS type bikes. In the used market the R1100GS is a great value as it has dropped in price about as far as it is ever going to while the older bikes are going up in value. Some other nice things about the R1100GS is it is one of the least expensive bikes to modify the steering, the parts run only $350. When ever you add a sidecar to a motorcycle you end up with heavy steering unless you modify the front end. You need to move the front wheel forward by about 2 inches, lots of ways to do this, some very expensive some not so much. The BMW having a Telelever front end rather then a standard type fork makes it one of the least expensive bikes around for front end modifications. The R1100 is the least expensive, The R1150GS a bit more ($1000 for the parts) due to a completely different design. The R1200GS is still more complicated to make the parts so it runs $1200 and the new water cooled GS runs $1400 for the parts unless you want to go all out with it in which case we now can even run a BMW GS rear wheel on the front of the new R1200GSA giving you all 3 wheels interchanging. Another issue with sidecars is that they are hard on rear tires, Some bikes you can mount a car tire right on the stock rim, others you need special wheels. For the R1100GS we have an automotive wheel conversion $1295, which is also the price for the R1150GS however the R1200GS the price is only $895, simpler parts to make.
As to reverse, it can be added to some bikes mostly Harley however with the sidecar reverse is much less needed then with out a sidecar as all you have to do is push. With a two wheeled motorcycle most of your effort when backing is making sure that the bike does not fall over. Not an issue with a sidecar, get off an push, not hard to do. You can also coast backwards into parking spots so that you can motor out.
As to training here is a link to the Evergreen safety council which administers the training nation wide http://evergreenmotorcycletraining.org/
We build 12 different models of sidecars along with bikes specific mounts and would be happy to work with you or just advise you on this.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
http://www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
Quote from Tax Man on June 10, 2014, 11:55 amKatie,
I don't know where you go to find training for riding sidecar rigs. I received mine when we had our first sidecar grafted onto the bike. Gary at Motorvation Engineering took the rig and me to a high school parking lot where he first demonstrated starting, stopping, turning, signaling, etc. Then he required me to start and stop in a straight line using the parking lot paint stripes to guide on. Then I had to start, stop, shift, and signal at his command in a figure 8. He demonstrated "flying" the car, but did not require me to try that maneuver.Left turns on a US rig is not very problematic. Right turns can be scary if the sidecar is not heavy enough for the bike or not properly ballasted. I've flown the sidecar only once. It was unintentional and very unnerving. Luckily there was no oncoming traffic and there was a driveway I could use for a runout to get the sidecar back down. It happened when I took a right turn too fast, it was an acute angle turn, and I didn't have a passenger in the sidecar. You will learn to use acceleration in right turns and deceleration in left turns to remove effort from steering. I haven't changed my steering head geometry or front forks to make steering more effortless. I have an electric "lean" control that allows me to level the rig from side to side which makes straight-line steering feel neutral instead of pulling to the left or right because of road camber, amount of weight on the sidecar, and cross winds that affect steering. I do not mess with the struts that attach the sidecar. I have had the torsion bar suspension collapse once because I hit a DEEP pothole, and I've had a weld break that held the torsion bar in place. In the first case the rig leaned severely to the right until I could get to where I could make repairs on the suspension, and in the second the toe-in on the sidecar became toe-out and the sidecar tire was chewed down to the steel belt in only a short time.
GWRRA has training for trikes and sidecars, but around here it seems to be a pretty much one-size-fits-all with emphasis on trikes. I'll admit I only viewed their video training DVD. I don't know if ABATE has sidecar training.
It may sound to you from my comments as if sidecaring is a terrible way to go and is unreasonably dangerous. We love it. We choose to travel by sidecar whenever we can up here in the northern part of the country.
Katie,
I don't know where you go to find training for riding sidecar rigs. I received mine when we had our first sidecar grafted onto the bike. Gary at Motorvation Engineering took the rig and me to a high school parking lot where he first demonstrated starting, stopping, turning, signaling, etc. Then he required me to start and stop in a straight line using the parking lot paint stripes to guide on. Then I had to start, stop, shift, and signal at his command in a figure 8. He demonstrated "flying" the car, but did not require me to try that maneuver.
Left turns on a US rig is not very problematic. Right turns can be scary if the sidecar is not heavy enough for the bike or not properly ballasted. I've flown the sidecar only once. It was unintentional and very unnerving. Luckily there was no oncoming traffic and there was a driveway I could use for a runout to get the sidecar back down. It happened when I took a right turn too fast, it was an acute angle turn, and I didn't have a passenger in the sidecar. You will learn to use acceleration in right turns and deceleration in left turns to remove effort from steering. I haven't changed my steering head geometry or front forks to make steering more effortless. I have an electric "lean" control that allows me to level the rig from side to side which makes straight-line steering feel neutral instead of pulling to the left or right because of road camber, amount of weight on the sidecar, and cross winds that affect steering. I do not mess with the struts that attach the sidecar. I have had the torsion bar suspension collapse once because I hit a DEEP pothole, and I've had a weld break that held the torsion bar in place. In the first case the rig leaned severely to the right until I could get to where I could make repairs on the suspension, and in the second the toe-in on the sidecar became toe-out and the sidecar tire was chewed down to the steel belt in only a short time.
GWRRA has training for trikes and sidecars, but around here it seems to be a pretty much one-size-fits-all with emphasis on trikes. I'll admit I only viewed their video training DVD. I don't know if ABATE has sidecar training.
It may sound to you from my comments as if sidecaring is a terrible way to go and is unreasonably dangerous. We love it. We choose to travel by sidecar whenever we can up here in the northern part of the country.
Quote from jaydmc on June 10, 2014, 12:19 pmDon after reading your comments, I think you as most long time sidecar riders would learn a lot if they take the advanced sidecar class offered through out the county and administered by the Evergreen safety council. You will learn things you may not know such as the proper way to use the front brake while staying on the throttle in turns.
For people who can not get to a training facility I recommend the book by David Hough "driving a sidecar outfit" We sell it for $34.95
I will not give training to new riders in a parking lot for an hour or two, just to much to cover instead we arrange if you are picking up a new rig from us and have not ridden sidecar before to have you take one of the many classes local to us, we will even deliver your rig there so you can train on your own bike rather then the schools bike.
BTW, I certified as an instructor in the first ever instructor certification class, I was also the assistant instructor when the classes were being taught before any instructors were certified while we were still working out the details of what works best in class.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
Don after reading your comments, I think you as most long time sidecar riders would learn a lot if they take the advanced sidecar class offered through out the county and administered by the Evergreen safety council. You will learn things you may not know such as the proper way to use the front brake while staying on the throttle in turns.
For people who can not get to a training facility I recommend the book by David Hough "driving a sidecar outfit" We sell it for $34.95
I will not give training to new riders in a parking lot for an hour or two, just to much to cover instead we arrange if you are picking up a new rig from us and have not ridden sidecar before to have you take one of the many classes local to us, we will even deliver your rig there so you can train on your own bike rather then the schools bike.
BTW, I certified as an instructor in the first ever instructor certification class, I was also the assistant instructor when the classes were being taught before any instructors were certified while we were still working out the details of what works best in class.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
http://www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
Quote from SwampFox on June 10, 2014, 8:30 pmWith some experience under our belt, we may have absorbed more instruction the 2nd time we participated in the S/TEP course.
With some experience under our belt, we may have absorbed more instruction the 2nd time we participated in the S/TEP course.
Quote from RoanokeRider on June 11, 2014, 11:21 amSwampFox - 6/10/2014 9:30 PM
With some experience under our belt, we may have absorbed more instruction the 2nd time we participated in the S/TEP course.
I found this to be true for me. Knowing what to expect and what questions to ask helped a great deal.
SwampFox - 6/10/2014 9:30 PM
With some experience under our belt, we may have absorbed more instruction the 2nd time we participated in the S/TEP course.
I found this to be true for me. Knowing what to expect and what questions to ask helped a great deal.
Quote from Guest on June 11, 2014, 11:45 amKatie, I suggest you make a trip up to Prescott and visit Mark Tetreau at Scooter and Auto Source. Mark's a Ural dealer and also a sidecarist for nearly 40 years. I'm not suggesting you buy a Ural but give him a call, take your riding gear and take a guided spin on a Ural to help guide you with your sidecar quest.
New Urals will cruise at 65 and have lesser maint needs than the older ones. Good on dirt, too.
I owned a couple and liked the reverse. Now I have an 1100 V-Star with a sidecar, no reverse, and I get along fine.
Good luck with your quest.
Al Bond
Katie, I suggest you make a trip up to Prescott and visit Mark Tetreau at Scooter and Auto Source. Mark's a Ural dealer and also a sidecarist for nearly 40 years. I'm not suggesting you buy a Ural but give him a call, take your riding gear and take a guided spin on a Ural to help guide you with your sidecar quest.
New Urals will cruise at 65 and have lesser maint needs than the older ones. Good on dirt, too.
I owned a couple and liked the reverse. Now I have an 1100 V-Star with a sidecar, no reverse, and I get along fine.
Good luck with your quest.
Al Bond
Quote from katie on June 11, 2014, 11:55 amSounds like a great idea. We go up there to get out of the heat fairly often. Next day off that would be a good little ride.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Katie 🙂
Sounds like a great idea. We go up there to get out of the heat fairly often. Next day off that would be a good little ride.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Katie 🙂
Quote from Tax Man on June 11, 2014, 4:40 pmJay, were you the presenter for DMC at the national rally in Coeur d'Alene, ID two years ago? I enjoyed that presentation. I'm sure I could benefit from sidecar training, but I have not been aware of the availability of that kind of training in this area.
Jay, were you the presenter for DMC at the national rally in Coeur d'Alene, ID two years ago? I enjoyed that presentation. I'm sure I could benefit from sidecar training, but I have not been aware of the availability of that kind of training in this area.
Quote from jaydmc on June 11, 2014, 5:35 pmYes, I did a presentation at the national rally two years ago as well as the last time the national rally was in Washington State as my wife and I also hosted that national.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
866-638-1793
Yes, I did a presentation at the national rally two years ago as well as the last time the national rally was in Washington State as my wife and I also hosted that national.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
866-638-1793